Tseries FAQ

(formerly asked questions) Version 1.0-a, September 2002

These data is mainly collected from the MG's lists:

mgs@autox.team.net & mg-t@autox.team.net

If you find any faults, please inform me, and I'll correct them. Please forward all additional info you want to share to : roozemond@gmx.net

For questions on TD's please use the list: mg-t@autox.team.net

This FAQ can also be found on-line in PDF and HTML at (long and large files!) : see below)

WWW Links:

www.mgcars.org.uk/ (all MG's-very good. incl a BBS)

www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/ -(The Original MGTD Midget, lots of info, getting better everytime. You should read it!)

www.team.net/sol/ -(brit stuff, good, hosts the list where most of this info came from, Thus very important, also has search engine)

mg-tabc.org (T-abcs forever)

 

Searchable web-links; the list archives in searchable form on a web site at www.team.net/archive/mg-t

NOTE:

These data is "collective net wisdom" and should be handled with care, thus :

NO commercial use is permitted without the written permission of the subsequent author(s).

NO garanties given on all answers. So use with care.

On given answers, pricing and all the rest: YMMV

This FAQ mainly caters for TD series cars ( as I collected it for my own restauration proces, a 53 TD), but quite a lot TF problems and some TC questions are answered here also. Collected by Danko Roozemond. e-mail : roozemond@gmx.net

 

Safety Fast

p.s. If you find this info usefull, you may want to help Mark Bradakis from "Fat change garage". He is the one who maintaines these lists. More info via mjb@autox.team.net or (paypal) via http://www.team.net/posting.html

The FAQ can also be found on-line as PDF or zipped html/pdf at (long and large file! ca 1.2 MB, slow server)

HTML version of this FAQ

Please download the file for off-line use.

     

    INDEX:

    Intro *

    T Series Books *

    MG Flat rate manual *

    MG TD Restoration Costs *

    Purchase Inspection Help Needed *

    Motor *

    Motor: rebuilding *

    52TD Cyl Head stuck *

    Storing engine & tranny *

    Head stud removal *

    Mounting engine on stand *

    Pulling MG engine *

    XPAG Question, rebuild *

    Changing a piston on a TD question *

    MG Cam *

    XPAG Camshafts *

    TD Cam *

    Tappet clearances and identifying the cam *

    Advantage of late cam over early cam? *

    TD Engine, timing *

    Crankshaft Balancing *

    Head Gasket Orientation *

    TD Manifold Gasket Question *

    Silicon Gaskets *

    TD oil pressure (1) *

    TD oil pressure (2) *

    TD -- The Search for Oil Pressure *

    TD's leak oil? *

    Rear and Front main oil seals *

    XPAG Front seal *

    Oil leaks via the back plate *

    XPAG Rear crankshaft oilseal. *

    Rear seal *

    Rear and Front main oil seals *

    TD Tappets. *

    Valve clearance on TD *

    TD Valve Gap Lore *

    Stuck Valve on TD *

    TF mystery, valve seats *

    52 MGTD Valve Guides *

    Sticky Valve? *

    TD Rocker arm questions *

    XPAG Con Rod Torque *

    Torque setting *

    Bearings don't fit, now what? *

    45mm Core Plugs *

    XPAG rod journals. *

    XPAG Rocker bushes *

    Breather Hole *

    Rebuilding TD water pumps: *

    TD Flywheel *

    Motor: After rebuild *

    Starting after a rebuild *

    Priming the oil pump *

    XPAG Oil Pump Prime Question *

    Cold Valve Clearance *

    Breaking In a TD Engine *

    Why do Valves like Marvel Mystery Oil so much? *

    Motor: Filter-air/oil *

    K&N filter for TD *

    Oil Filters for XPAG - XPEG Engines *

    TF oil filter *

    Spin on oil filter conversion *

    Why do two seals come with the filter? *

    What's in the Canister in the Oil Pan? *

    TC Oil Coolers *

    Oil cooler for a MG TF *

    TD Oil Drain Plug removal *

    TD drain tap on block *

    Oil feed pipe *

    TD oil line *

    Motor: starting *

    TD won't start *

    Starting with the hand crank *

    Starting a T-series with the crank. *

    TD starting handle crank nut loose... *

    Motor: running / problem solving *

    TD idle speed *

    Mixture problem *

    Slow oil pressure at start *

    High oil presure *

    Motor: Misc. *

    Morris and B.M.C. engine codes *

    TD engine stabilizer *

    XPAG sitting not straight *

    Fan blades *

    TD Tach Adjustment *

    Oil in distributor cap *

    TD exhaust manifold/pipe gasket? *

    Lower breather pipe bracket *

    TC intake manifold *

    TD exhaust *

    Transmission / axle *

    Transmission *

    Gear oil *

    What oil to use in my gearbox *

    Eliminating TD shifter rattle *

    TD Transmission Rattle *

    TD gearbox tunnel cover *

    MG TD Tranny Rebuild - In over my head? *

    MG TD Gearbox : end float for the lay gear? *

    TD Gear Box torque *

    Troubleshooting TD Gearbox? *

    Gear box "pop" out *

    TD transmission worn remote control cover *

    TD Gearbox gasket *

    Support bracket for the transmission *

    MGTF rear transmission mount *

    TD Gear Box Insulation *

    TD Transmission Problems *

    TD/TF transmission *

    Transmission / axle: gear ratio *

    TC rear axle gearing *

    TD Gear Ratio *

    TD/TF transmission with a better (close) ratio *

    TF axle ratio *

    Changing Rear End Ratio in a TD *

    Gear/tranny changes *

    TD/TF ring and pinion gears *

    TD real axle grear ratio *

    TD RPM's *

    TC transmission & rear axle ratio *

    Rear axle *

    TD differential oil *

    MG TD -- rear axle seals *

    TD rear axle seals are leaking *

    TD Rear Axle Oil Seal Question *

    Rear Axle Oil Seal Replacement on TD *

    Broken TD half shaft *

    Broken half-shaft *

    Old vs New Rear Half Axles *

    T series worn axle splines *

    TF Rear Axle *

    Axle Housing *

    Rear Axle Nut *

    Transmission / axle: vibrations *

    TD vibration *

    Shaking TD *

    My TD has the Shakes *

    Clutch *

    Late TD Clutch replacement *

    TD Clutch Question *

    TD Clutch Slipping *

    TD clutch *

    Fierce TD clutch *

    TD clutch adjustment *

    TD clutch rod *

    TD Clutch Linkage *

    TD Clutch Linkage *

    Clutch Roller Bearings *

    Spigot bushing driver *

    Torque for pressure plate bolts *

    Cluch, restoration *

    Steering / Shocks *

    Steering box ++ *

    Steering rack lubrication on TD *

    Steering Rack Lubrication *

    Steering Assembly- how much oil *

    TD steering box Lubrication *

    TC steering box *

    Steering pinion shaft seal *

    Steering shaft bearing. (T series) *

    TD steering column bushing *

    TD steering rack clunk *

    TD Steering problem solved *

    TD Steering Wheel Romoval *

    TD steering wheel removal (2) *

    Wheels / tires *

    Steering wheel shimmy *

    Wheel Wobble TC - 19" wheels *

    Front wheel shimmy - MG TD *

    Tires for TD? *

    Right size tires for TD and TF *

    Tire Pressure for TD *

    Tubeless tires on TD wheels? *

    Wire wheels on a MG-TD? *

    MG TD Wheel Studs *

    Front end *

    TD front end noise *

    TD Front Wheel Bearings *

    Packing front bearings, revisited *

    Front Hub Grease Cap *

    Front bearings *

    MG TD -- front end alignment *

    TC Suspension rebuild questions *

    Removing front suspension. *

    King/Swivel pins *

    King pin threads *

    Swivel pin replacement *

    King Pins *

    TD suspension bushing reaming, now on line *

    Right & left hand threads *

    Front coil spring *

    Torquing bolts (TD Front Suspension) *

    MG TD/TF Anti-roll bar *

    Front Wheel Hubs *

    Shocks *

    Remove the shocks: *

    MG TD Shock Absorbers. *

    TD Shocks *

    Armstrong shock replacement *

    Rear shocks mounting *

    TD shocks *

    TD front damper *

    Shock Fluid *

    TD rear shocks *

    TC Shock Bushings *

    Rear end *

    TD Rear Springs *

    TD Rear shock mounting *

    Pedal shafts *

    Clutch Pedal Shaft on TD-TF *

    T & YA/YB pedal Lubrication *

    Pedal shaft *

    Grease Nipple Identification / lube points the DPO did notlube *

    Sloppy pedals *

    TD grease fitting on brake/clutch shaft *

    Braking *

    Brake cylinders *

    Wheel and Master Cylinders *

    A master cylinder tip *

    MG-TD Wheel Cylinders *

    Frozen MGTD or any brake cylinders *

    'Frozen' brake cylinders *

    Frozen TD Brakes *

    Brake drums *

    Where can I get a Brake Drum puller? *

    Removing Front Wheel Hub *

    TF front drum *

    Removing TF Brake Drums *

    Pulling TD Brake Drums *

    Brake drum *

    Brakes: Misc *

    TD-TF brake and fuel line clips *

    Lubricating TD handbrake *

    TD Hand Brake *

    TD Brake lines *

    Thickness of brake shoes *

    Brake problem, locking up *

    Grabbing brakes *

    TF Brakes *

    TD Brakes *

    Fuel *

    Fuel, carb *

    TD carb overflows *

    SU CARBS *

    Carb. problem *

    Carb Jet Seals *

    MGTD trottle return spring *

    TD float setting *

    Float bowl *

    TD Carburetor Leak *

    TD hesitation *

    TD's with a cold idle mechanism? *

    Fuel, vapor lock *

    Vapor lock (1) *

    TD vapor lock (2) *

    TF Vapor Lock *

    Fuel Vaporization? (MG TD) food for thought *

    Fuel, gas tank ++ *

    TD Fuel Warning Lamp *

    Fuel leak on MGTD *

    TD Fuel Sender *

    Sending Unit *

    TD gas tank filter *

    Gastank gum *

    TD Fuel Tank - internal rust *

    TD gas cap cork seal *

    TD Gas Cap Seal *

    TD Fuel Cap *

    Fuel, misc. *

    '52 TD fuel consumption *

    TD running rich *

    TD Gas Cap Seal, easy repair? *

    SU Fuel Pump *

    Flooding TD fuel pump *

    Electrics *

    Electrics, ignition *

    T & Y Type spark plugs *

    TD Sparkplugs (2) *

    TD Spark Plugs, 1/2 or 3/4 inch? *

    Spark plugs (2) *

    TD spark tuning *

    TD firing order *

    TD Coil *

    TD coil installation. *

    TD Coil / faulty *

    TF coil *

    Distributor and Tuning guff *

    Points Gap and Timing *

    MG distributors *

    Distributor TD *

    TD distributor cap *

    Part numbers for points, condenser and coil (napa) *

    TD points *

    No Spark - What is going on?? *

    TD ignition situation problem / rough running *

    Electrics, electronic ignition *

    Petronix ignition *

    Electronic Ignition for the TD *

    How to set timing on a TD with an Ignitor *

    Electronic ignition for MG TD *

    Points/electronic ign. *

    Electronic Ignition *

    Electrics, starter, generator & battery *

    TD Starter *

    TD starter / Testing *

    TD Starter *

    TD generator ID-Plate *

    TD Generator Output Question *

    Charge current *

    MG TD Voltage Regulator :cooking Battery? *

    TD Voltage Regulator *

    Voltage Regulator *

    TD Voltage Regulator Setting *

    Trials with a rheostat temporarily lashed in seem to be a good idea. *

    Amp gauge *

    Ammeter *

    MGTD Battery Specifications *

    Electrics, wiring, etc *

    TD license plate lamp wiring question *

    Electrical Harness Help with '51 TD *

    Wiring colors *

    Electrics, polarity *

    Positive ground? *

    Positive Ground to Negative Ground on MGA *

    Reversing polarity *

    Electrics, lights *

    Halogen Bulbs *

    Fuses for headlights *

    Fusing *

    Fuses *

    Aiming headlights *

    TD brake lights *

    TD Brake Lights Out! *

    Electrics, misc *

    52 MGTD extra condenser *

    Wipers on 52 TD *

    TD Wiper *

    TD Windshield Wiper Motor getting hot *

    Help With TD Wiper Motor *

    TD Clock power? *

    TD clock resto *

    TD Gauges restoration *

    Lucas Horns *

    Lucas striker! *

    Flasher Location *

    Radios *

    Cooling / heating / overheating *

    MGTD Radiator *

    TD Radiator Shell Question *

    TD Radiator Installation *

    TD Water Temp *

    Moss Thermostat & Housing *

    Radiator mounting bracket holes *

    TD Radiator Support *

    Water Pump Repair *

    Thermostat *

    TD radiator *

    Thermostat TD *

    Blocking the Bypass *

    Thermostat Redux *

    Cooling Leak Mystery *

    Where to link up a heater? *

    TD overheating *

    Cool Cars *

    TD vapor lock *

    Overheating TF *

    Overheating TF (2) *

    How hot is too hot? *

    Body work *

    Body work, tub *

    TD body removal *

    TD TUB *

    TF Body *

    TD Floorboard Screws *

    Running board *

    TD Door Hinges-(1) *

    TD Door Hinges-(2) *

    TD door fit *

    Door Alignment *

    Refubishing TD door hinges *

    TD Door Fitting *

    Door latches *

    Striker plate and wedge *

    Door Strikers *

    T series bonnet help *

    FAQ Page for Metalwork, Paint, Prep & Woodwork *

    Body work, colours & chrome *

    Paint *

    Lacquer Paint source? *

    Paint for TC wheels *

    Colour of radiator slats on TD *

    XPAG Distributor (colour) *

    Chroming TD Radiator Shell *

    Chrome Repair Question *

    TD bolt color *

    MGTC / Color of firewall *

    Painting TD gas tank end panels *

    TD cluster panel/oil filter colour *

    Color Scheme *

    TD Exhaust Manifold Paint *

    Body work, misc *

    Fender bolts *

    TD plug holder *

    Side Curtain Mouldings *

    TD Gas Tank romoval *

    Piping (1) *

    Piping (2) *

    Piping (3) *

    TC-TD Dash *

    TD Instrument panel *

    TF Dash rubber installation *

    TD Dash / filling smaller holes *

    TD Foot Rest Questions *

    Trunk Rack *

    TD hardtop *

    TD Tops *

    Two or three bow top? *

    Mounting lap straps in the TD *

    Misc *

    Misc, bolts *

    Torque Settings *

    Helicoil Kit *

    Carb Float bowl banjo bolt hole repair-helicoil *

    NUTS and bolds *

    Headlight nuts, Large size nuts , fine threads...?? *

    Bolts *

    Stripped bolt holes *

    Misc, Lubrication *

    T Series Lubrication *

    Misc, gauges *

    TD Speedo Problem *

    TD water temp/level *

    TD Gauges, where's the red line? *

    Speedometer Rebuild Cost *

    TD Tachometer Gearbox *

    Misc, everything else..... *

    TD "shakes" when "backing up". *

    TD looses power at speed *

    Noise from MGTD when hitting dip in road. *

    Vibration Cause? *

    A TD owner need some help, hesitation *

     

    Intro

     

    T Series Books

    The MG T Series Restoration Guide by Malcolm Green is interesting in that it has a number of excellent diagrams which I have found useful in determining how lines and wires are routed. It is also very good on interiors.

    The Complete M.G. TD Restoration Manual By Horst Schach is new. I have a copy and it seems to cover areas that are not covered in other books. A very worthwile book.I was somewhat surprised to find absolutely nothing about carburetors, generator, starter, fuel pump, etc. Therefore, I think the use of the word "complete" is a bit strong. I guess that you are supposed to get this info somewhere else. However, it appears to be the best I've seen on body restoration.

    I found the MG midget TD/TF Factory Workshop to be fairly good, but has minor faults such as poor diagrams of the brake system. The MG Midget Series TD and TF Workshop Manual is, in my opinion, much better than those that cover all of the T's because it is easier to sort out the information pertinent to the TD.

    The T Type Restoration Handbook by Knudson is excellent for the reprints of articles from the magazine of the New England T-Series Reg. A tremendous font of all sorts of good facts is "The T Series Handbook" put out by the New England 'T' Register. I've recently seen pictures of it in catalogs with a new cover since the one I have which came out in 1986. I don't know if there are changes in the text also.

    In general, each book has strengths in different areas with Schlack being very strong in the engine rebuild and tub restoration.

    There is one book that you did not mention. The University Motors LTD. Technical Booklet. This is put out by John Twist at University Motors in Ada, Michigan. He teaches a series of classes on MGs during the winter and uses this as a manual. I have had the joy of attending a number of his classes - B Series restoration, Front end rebuild, Transmission Rebuild, Interiors. He also does classes on carb. rebuilds, T Series restoration and engine rebuild. My XPEG engine was rebuild this winter in this course. The Tech Book covers all of the post war models and includes articles that John has written for various magazines such as MG Mag. The cost is about $15 - $18 and is well worth the cost.

    Another good source of information are the catalogs from Moss Motors and Abingdon Spares. _Almost_ every part is illustrated in these catalogs. Join the NEMGTregister so you can get the Sacred Octagon 2. get the NEMGTR publication the"T Series Handbook" Also get the factory workshop manual

     

    MG Flat rate manual

    BAP published some flat rate info in its 1956 catalog. Here's some useful stuff for you for the TC & TD.

    hours cost $

    Engine overhaul 13.0 h

    Rebore @ $4 16.00

    Gasket set 1 4.70

    Gasket set 2 2.60

    Piston, ea 6.85

    Ring set ea 6.15

    Valve spring set 4.70

    Exh valve, ea 1.75

    Intake valve, ea 1.36

    Conrod Brg set 5.36

    Main Brg set 8.54

    Exh guide, ea .70

    In guide, ea .66

    Clutch overhaul 8.0

    Clutch unit, exchange 23.75

    TD parts may have been bargains then; they're twice the price of MGB parts today.

    MG TD Restoration Costs

    - frame, body, body wood, all look good, no work

    Are you sure? Check wood around the sills in particular. New body tub is $4,000+, although yours can probably be repaired for much less, if necessary. wood sills may or maynot be good..there are products on the market to correct punky wood, but if you are paticular you will replace..any wood and panel work is difficult. I recently restored, Frame up, a 53 TD. Can be fun if treated that way or it may just drive you crazy. Shop the internet for stuff you need. Make a list and buy from moss when they have their sales..look for the items you need on sale.

    brakes

    Minimum $350 to sleeve all brake slave and master cylinders. $150 for new brake lines. About $125 to $160 for shoes. About $50 for rebuild kits. I had to pay $100 to have the drums turned at a machine shop since no one had a brake lathe to fit. That's a total of $775 just for parts and stuff I just couldn't do myself. New front slave cylinders are made of unobtainium. Brakes are the most inportant of all. You need to stop when you need to stop. Can really hurt if you do not. Do not skip here. New lines, resleeve, etc.

    - clutch

    Not too expensive if you pull the engine and install yourself. About $200 for parts. More to turn the flywheel or replace the ring gear, if needed. Correct.

    - fuel system, lines and carb rebuild

    Most firms charge around $300 to rebuild the carbs, much cheaper if you do it yourself. Fuel pumps are around $90. Correct but you can do it yourself. Rebuild kits are relativly inexpensive..buy the video.

    - wire wheels, trued, beaded and painted, powder coat

    Powder coating costs about $40 to $50 a wheel, but then you don't have to bead and paint them. How did you end up with wires on a '52? They aren't original, if you are concerned with that. Bead and repaint!

    - paint, few minor dents, no rust...

    Sounds like the whole thing needs to be stripped first. Probably several hundred $$ or so to strip, depending upon your method. Cheapest would be to do it yourself with several cans of stripper. Messy job. Easier to have it plastic media blasted, which is expensive, but leaves a great surface for the paint. DO NOT SANDBLAST IT! Sandblasting is way too abrasive and will warp the panels. A _good_ paint job will be a couple thousand dollars. There are places that you can take the tub, fenders , etc to and have them dipped. Works great.

    - interior

    $2,000? Just a guess, I haven't got this far, yet. That's just for the upholstery and panels, no labor.Don not think it will cost that much if you shop and buy when on sale, but not cheap. - chrome, ouch $$$, canada or mexico?

    Depends on the quality. You can generally buy repro bumpers for less than you can have the originals rechromed, but the finish doesn't last long on the repros. Front grill surround I think is $200 to $300 depending upon damage and the quality of the result you want.True! Front Radiator shell was recromed for only $250, but it is perfect now.

    This is about the order I plan to progress in. Any info will be greatly appreciated. I don't want to get in over my finacial head...,

    What about a new top and side curtain covers ($1,000 from Moss)? Are you going to take it off the frame and have the frame sandblasted, etc. What about suspension parts? New front bushings, springs, shocks runs about $400+ for parts, no labor. Rear springs and shocks would be more. How is the engine? A rebuild could easily cost $2,000+. The transmission? Parts are $500 minimum for a tranny rebuild.

     

    Purchase Inspection Help Needed

    I'm considering joining the ranks of MGTD owners and have found a likely candidate to buy. Being a 52 year old car it does have a few flaws but nothing that's killed the purchase yet. I do have a couple of questions I wonder if experienced owners can answer though.

    The engine breather has noticeable smoke coming out of it. I believe this is normal, but just how much is normal and under what conditions?

    I did not pull the spark plugs on the initial look (it was getting dark) but want to go back and do that. How should they look on a properly working engine?

    There are some questions about the brakes. The owner says they were repaired about 3 years ago (about 300 running miles, since the car has not been used much recently). One drum was replaced and the brake cylinder redone. There is no apparent problem when running, but when the brakes are applied the car pulls to the right a bit. He explains that the pad adjustments are done in steps and unless pad wear is exactly the same on both sides you will always get some pull to one side or the other. True? If not true, how hard to fix?

    There's also a bit of a rattle which appears to come from the right rear wheel area. Any ideas what might be loose back there (brake pad, ...?) and how much of a problem it's likely to be.

    The gas tank leaks. Not fast enough that we could see it actually drip, but there is paint damage from it. The FAQ has a pretty good discussion on this but is a couple of years old. Is there any new knowledge about this sort of problem?

    He has a spin on oil filter adapter that apparently does not work well. He's had it blow the filter seal twice right after startup due, he says, to high pressure. By letting the car warm up (and thus the oil warm, thin, and max. pressure go down) he says there are no problems. He suggests I switch to the other type of filter mod (the one with replaceable filter elements) which is supposed to work properly. This is discussed in the FAQ too so making the change does not seem to be a problem, but is there any new knowledge on this topic?

    I'm not technically ept, but I do know (from costly personal experience) that you should take a really knowledgeable T-series person with you to inspect this vehicle. The car should go up on a hoist for a proper inspection. I know enough to suspect you may be buying a peck of trouble.

    Tell people where you are - you will probably get suggestions as to specific people who can inspect the car for you. It's worth paying for this service!

    There's nothing inherently wrong with TDs in general. Properly maintained they are very reliable. However when buying one you have 50 years and who knows how many Dumb Previous Owners (DPOs) working against you, plus a current owner (possibly a DPO) who may have a grossly exaggerated perception of the car's condition and of its value. Unless you have tons of money to throw around, it pays to be careful. If you can find an expert to take with you, do so.

    Smoke from the breather should not be considered "normal". This is likely a symptom of loose rings. It results from blow-by. A wisp now and then is livable, but a steady stream would indicate you are on the way to needing some engine work.

    Noticeable smoke coming out of the breather isn't normal or acceptable. If it has been years since the engine was last run, could be the rings are stuck and can be freed up. If that's not it, the smoke indicates extreme engine wear or damage (probably rings and/or cylinder bores), or else an engine that has been rebuilt very sloppily.

    The ideal is a dry plug with a tan color. Whitish color indicates too lean a mixture. Black sooty (dry) plugs indicate too rich a mixture. Black and wet oily plugs are indicative of some of the same troubles as above. Most TDs run on the rich side, so expect to see black dry plugs.

    Tan or brown, and dry. If black and dry, the mixture is rich. If white and dry, the mixture is lean. If black and oily, it's a sign that the rings and/or valve guides are shot.

    Not true. First standard TDs don't use brake pads, they use shoes as they are drum brakes. The adjustment is a screw reachable from the outside, so there's no reason not to adjust them properly. If the car has been off the road for a few years, it's likely that the brakes have started to get sticky due to corrosion inside the wheel cylinders. Not a difficult job, but if simple adjustments don't take care of the problem, I would then consider a tear down to check the reason for uneven braking. It may be as simple as oily brake linings, or a complex as rebuilding cylinders. In any case, a brake fluid change would be strongly encouraged.

    Not true. It would be true if the car had purely mechanical brakes that were misadjusted, but it isn't true with hydraulic brakes. The adjustment controls the at-rest gap between the brake shoes and the brake drum. As long as that is the same on both wheels, and as long as the rest of the brake system is in good condition, the brakes won't pull to one side.

    Pulling to one side means the brake on that side (probably front) is braking more than the one on the other side. Look for wheel cylinder problems, or problems with the brake shoe mounting, or possibly oil on the shoes on the side that is not pulling.

    Hard to say what that is. Could be as simple as a stone inside the hub cap, or something loose in the brake assembly. Pull the wheel and drum and investigate.

    Not unusual for a car that has been stored for a while - especially if the tank wasn't stored full and rust has set in. Check the sediment filter in the fuel pump and in the carb float bowls. If there is rust present, you may need to seal the tank.

    Where is it leaking? If there is a rust pin hole in the tank, aircraft "slushing compound" may stop the leak. If one of the soldered seams is coming apart, you'll need major tank repairs. If the fuel level indicator sending unit leaks where it mounts to the tank, or if its top cover leaks, then new gaskets and gasket compound will stop the leak unless the parts are badly distored from overtightening.

    I agree to get a replacement filter body with a screw-on filter. Bob Grunau who monitors this list manufactures these. Well worth the price.

    There's nothing inherently bad about a spin-on filter conversion, but there have been some very poorly made adapters sold over the years. How much oil pressure registers on the gauge at cold startup? I can't imagine it's high enough to blow out the filter gasket unless the filter wasn't installed correctly or the gasket surface of the spin-on adapter isn't machined accurately. Switching back to the original filter cannister is easy enough, but spin-on filters are easier to get and easier to install. If you want to stay with a spin-on filter, get an adapter from Bob Grunau. His are excellent. In any case, I wouldn't consider this a deal breaker unless the oil pressure really is incredibly high. That would indicate a problem with the oil pump relief valve or something elsewhere in the lubrication system.

    These cars are not really a peck of trouble at all. They are just somewhat behind state of the art 1952 cars. Time has probably caused less harm to them than to most vehicles of the same age. Their maintenance, care and feeding are things that most owners can accomplish at home, with a fairly basic toolkit. Cars wore faster then. Engine rebuilds at 60,000 miles were common. Look at old magazines such as Life and you will find adverts for Piston Rings. Piston Rings!! When was the last time you saw an advert for them? Just today, a lister mentioned oiling the hinges on the cars. MG suggested that in the owner handbook. Does Honda? Who cares anyway--who would want one of them in 52 years? Aside from the question of engine blow-by, which really does need to be answered to your satisfaction, the other issues are minor. You can rebuild the entire brake system of the TD for a few hundred bucks. Try that on a modern car. Gas tank leaks are fixable, or you can have someone make a new tank. 50 years before a leak isn't bad, really. The 50 year old analogue, spring wound clock probably needs only a cleaning and oiling to get it ticking accurately once more. Shock absorbers (dampers) can be sent out for rebuilding for less than the cost of a couple of sets of modern tube shocks that wear out. That's not to say that they do not have problems that modern vehicles do not. One problem is that the original carpets were wool, so moths can eat them. But don't be discouraged by the comments that I and others have made. A solid TD is a solid automobile.

    part 2:

    I re-visited the potential purchase car today. Other than the engine condition I'm satisfied on the other issues brought up previously. Here's what I learned about the engine today:

    There is smoke coming from the breather pretty much at all times--cold, hot, whatever. The only time it really stopped was when we removed the oil filler cap on the very top of the engine and then we saw smoke coming from there instead.

    We did compressions checks both cold and hot. Here are the results for each of the four cylinders:

    Cold: 115, 114, 125, 110 Hot: 105, 110, 120, 105

    This gave us a chance to examine the spark plugs. All were black and somewhat oily.

    I also watched the oil pressure more closely this time. Immediately after startup it was around 80. After the car warmed up and we drove it it was around 50, varying with engine RPM as expected. After finishing driving with the car at idle it was down to about 20.

    After the car was warmed up the exhaust was fairly clear. However, if the engine was rev'ed at the point where it was released back to idle there would be a puff of exhaust smoke.

    Some final notes: over the past 20 years the car has been used very little, averaging less than 100 miles per year. The engine starts right up, idles smoothly and seems to have plenty of power while driving.

    Although other indications seem good, I assume that the smoke does indicate a problem. But, how bad? Something that has to be rebuilt right away? Good enough to drive for a few thousand miles and then requiring some work? Or...? Any feedback is appreciated.

    A useful test is to put a small amount (about a teaspoon full) of engine oil down each plug hole and then measure compressions. The oil temporarily seals worn bores, so if the compressions go up a lot you can blame the bores. On the other hand if the compressions are substantially unchanged, then any loss is due to valve leakage.

    From what you say I would guess the engine is fairly worn, but would run OK for a while. The good side is that when you have rebuilt the engine you will #know# and have confidence in what has been done, rather than wondering what a DPO has committed out of your sight.

    I just got back to Salt Lake City from GoF West in Durango, Colorado.I drove a 53ish TD project car that had not been driven over a couple hundred miles in the last 25 years. It smoked a little and consumed a half quart of oil in the first 250 miles of 100-plus degree mountain desert heat. The sludge liquified, the gummy rings expanded and the power improved. We never needed the tow bar that came with the car. It used no additional oil and I don't think it is smoking any more. The amount of blow-by from the oil cap and road tube is less than when I started the 1000 mile exercise. Maybe I was just lucky, but I have a feeling from your description the potential purchase car might just need to be driven, tuned up and given a few oil changes. The puff of smoke when you let off the gas may be slightly worn valve guides. Chances are the guides could be done when you went through the head to upgrade valves and seats for unleaded gas sometime in the next few years.

     

     

    Motor

     

    Motor: rebuilding

     

    52TD Cyl Head stuck

    Working on my 52 TD and tried to get the cylinder head off today and had zero luck. All the bolts are removed per visual inspection and workshop manual (The rear head cover plate is still on, but I don't think that would impede the release of the head). According to the workshop manual you should loosen it up with, er, purcussive pursuasion (hit it with a hammer - with a block of wood between to soften the blow) but this did nada to it. I tried lifting it from the visible edges of the casting but to no avail (engine is still mounted in the car, and we actually were lifting the car up instead of breaking it loose).

    I'm assuming that its just that the gasket has turned to glue after sitting for 30 years. Any thoughts? Bigger hammer? Bolts I might have missed that need to be removed?

    The TD head is held on by 10 nuts on ten studs. To remove the head, you have to undo these nuts, disconnect the manifolds and the upper hose. You must also undo the three hollow bolts that hold the side cover on and pry it away from the head as this cover's gasket is pressed against the lower edge of the head. It's not essential to remove the rocker assembly but, if you don't, then the pushrods will come up with the head and make it more awkward to handle.

    If you've done all those things and the head still doesn't budge, then the culprit is possibly corrosion between the studs and the holes in the head. Spray liberal quantities of something like PB Blaster down the stud holes and let it sit for a while, then try again. If this doesn't work, use a stud extractor (or double-nut the studs) and remove as many of them as you can. This allows you to wriggle the head around more, breaking any residual seal with the head gasket. If all the studs come out, you can also use "percussive persuasion" to knock the head sideways to get it off the block............

    Had a similar problem with my 77 Midget. What I did was spray PB Blaster down the studs for several day, then removed all of the studs. I tried moving the piston to the bottom of the stoke and then filling the cylinder with some soft, clean, cotton rope. Then I rolled the car to bring the the piston up. This should be done when the values are shut, i.e. the compression stroke. In my case this failed, but others have had success. I then made sure that there was nothing holding the head on, no studs, no manifolds, etc. I then put in a couple of bolts into the water pump holes (on the front of the 1500 cc head) and using a 2x4, I jacked the front of the car up by the bolts in the front of the head. I only jacked the front wheels off the ground about 1 inch. After 2 days the head came loose.. YMMV. Good luck, but my head was stuck tight.

    If this doesn't work, use a stud extractor (or double-nut the studs) and remove as many of them as you can. This allows you to wriggle the head around more, breaking any residual seal with the head gasket. If all the studs come out, you can also use "percussive persuasion" to knock the head sideways to get it off the block............

    If all else fails, you can also put the spark plugs back in and hit the starter - the compression with all the valves closed may move the head, but try penetrating oil first.

    Worst case of stuck head I ever had was a Triumph Mayflower, which had an aluminum flat head that corroded to the steel studs. The only way to get it apart was to make up a hollow saw that went over each stud and, used in a drill, cut away a thin layer of aluminum around each stud. Took forever!

    One solution I have heard described is to put the spark plugs back in and crank the engine, so that compression blows the head loose. I think you would probably want to replace a few of the bolts loosely to keep it from coming clean off. If your car is an old non-runner and incapable of cranking this may not be helpful, I'm afraid.

     

    Storing engine & tranny

    Quick run down - my 52 TD was idle with fluids in it for about 30 years until I decided to try and rescue it. I've pulled the engine and have removed the cyl. head and pan. The unfortunate realization is that the pistons are rusted into the block solid. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to remove them? I've tried tapping, pounding, and pursuading to no avail. Two pistons are at TDC (or only a couple of degrees off that) and teh other two are (obviously I guess) at or near BDC. Due to rust on the pistons and the connecting rods they have to be replaced, so worst comes to worst I can have the machine shop drill them out when I get the cyls. bored, but I would prefer to do it myself, both for personal edification and, er, financial reasons (grad students don't make much money, y'know...)

    Recently there has been a good thread on storing engines and trannys - I guess I'm currently going through a bit of an object lesson as to what happens when the DPO DOESN'T do these things... ;)

    Are you sure it is the pistons that are seized? I recently had a similar problem and it was the lifters seized not the pistons. The pistons have to be removed from underneath as the rods do fit thru the bores. It is a delicate procedure as you have to orient the crankshaft perfectly to allow room for rod/piston removal from underneath. I would use some potent penetrating liquid (PB Blaster) and float it on top of the pistons and also the lifters for a few days and then try again.

    Changing the oil in the sump will get rid of acid-contaminated oil in there. Nasty oil in the sump is not much of a problem, but acid-contaminated oil resting on the bearing surfaces is. I rebuilt my TD engine because my father stored it for 10 years or so with dirty oil. The bearings look as though they had terminal smallpox. Now, the question is-how would you get clean oil into the bearings? I don't know exactly. Guess I would fill up the sump with clean oil and install a new filter, then crank the engine with starter until oil blew out the line to the gauge for a few seconds. Then, I'd dose the cylinders again and put the engine under a cover. You might want to crank to #1 cyl at TDC and remove the distributor to a safe, dry place. Some advocate spraying the clutch with WD40 to keep it from sticking. That may not make any real difference to you if you plan to replace it when the engine is rebuilt.

    I have heard filling the cyls with diesel fuel and letting it sit for several days works very well to free seized engines.

     

    Head stud removal

    On Monday I removed the head and manifolds from my 52TD. The head had been on the engine since I put it together about eight years/7000 miles ago and I can't recall the last time (if ever) that I checked the torque of the head nuts. I was curious to see if any had loosened over time so I began a series of torque wrench tests starting at 35 ft-lbs and working up in 5 ft-lb increments to see when a nut might break loose. While testing at 60 ft-lbs I got a shocking surprise as stud #4 broke off right at the nut. At that point I dug out my beam wrench and just removed the nuts (most gave way at about 70 ft-lbs).

    My concern, and the reason for this posting, is to ask if anyone has any suggestions for steps that I might take prior to attempting to remove the studs from the block. I'd hate to have one break off at the block level so as to have to be drilled out. I'll definitely be replacing the studs with new ones, no question about that.

    I would start by soaking the thread area with penetrating oil, then since you are going to be replacing the studs anyway, give them a good hard wack straight down on the stud prior to atempting removal.

    The former advice sits well with me, however, I'd add several things. The penetrant should be something like WD-40 or Liquid Wrench rather than a penetrating oil. The soaking and whacking should be done some time in advance of actually trying to move the stud, preferably overnight. When first attempting to move the stud, try rocking it (rotationally speaking) so that the stud turns back and forth, loosening and tightening back a little. The movement may be almost imperceptible at first, but be patient. This way you don't try to force the stud through loosened corrosion and have it gall the threads or break again. Use more penetrant. For tools, a large vice grip would be my choice if there is clearance enough.

    A totally different approach for certain circumstances is to weld a hex head onto the top of the broken stud. Let it cool completely before rocking it back and forth as before.

    Thanks for the clarification - on new or reusable studs, I would not use a vice grip, but Bud said his broke off. If there's enough thread left to double nut it, great. In my motorcycle experience another thought come to mind, and I don't know if this happens with TDs. Check the studs thoroughly for "necking down" if reusing studs. This indicates that the stud has stretched, causing the metal to become brittle, and it should be replaced. Anyone heard of this with MGs? Yes, it happens!

    Thanks to all who offered suggestions. They're out. None broke. Gave 'em a squirt of Busty (works better than PB Blaster and smells a whole lot better), hit 'em on the end with a hammer, hooked up my stud remover and cranked 'em out.

     

    Mounting engine on stand

    Has anyone mounted a TD engine to one of those US style engine stands where the engine is bolted to the stand using the transmission mounting bolts holes? These bolts look a little small to support the weight of the engine. I would appreciate anyone's advise who has actually done this or has any other methods to recommend.

    A friend of mine has an MG garage and uses one of thos engine holders that you described. He uses some hardened bolts that thread into the block bell housing area but I dont have the foggiest idea where he got them. Even with those bolts, I'd be a little squeamish about heavy torqueing on some of the main and rod bolts.

    Per Horst Schach's book, I mounted my engine to the four tranny holes. I used four of the 8mm rocker bracket bolts. They were too short, so I hack sawed about 1/4" off each of the four stand 'spacers'. I have the entire engine on the stand now less the cyl head. I am able to turn engine 360 degress, however I should have greased the stand sleeve before mounting the engine.

    My TD's engine came out a few weeks ago (perhaps you remember my call for help finding a crankshaft. I was able to bolt it up to the US style engine stand, though I was also worried about the ability of the bolts to take the load. More accurately, I was worried about breaking the flywheel housing part of the block casting, so I bolted it up gently, one turn at a time, until all the four bolts were equally snug, then lifted the assembly and poked the shaft of the holder into the stand. Horst Schach's (sp) book has a photo of a complete engine on the stand, so I guess it's OK.

    I did this a little differently, but the result is the same. First, I bought 8x1 bolts of appropriate length at the local Pep Boys, making sure to get high strength (equivalent to Grade 8, but I forget the metric designation). Supposedly the standard metric threaded bolt will have slightly different thread sizes, but they work fine.

    I then lifted the engine with my hoist to the right level. I bolted the stand to the engine, only putting weight on the stand and the bolts after everything was snugged up.

    One minor modification I had to make to the engine stand was necessary in my case. Each mounting hole on the stand was really a tube of about 2" long. I guess that provides additional clearance to the back of the engine while on the stand. In my case, it was too annoying to have to find bolts long enough to go through the tube. So I shortened them up using a cut-off tool.

    I was thinking about how you modified the engine stand. In my case, the bolts with the stand were long enough to permit the mounting tubes to be bolted to the stand, and the flat part of the little brackets to attach flat against the bell housing, thus providing some additional bearing and support surface for the weight of the engine.

    I just bolt one of my spare bell housings to the engine stand using grade 5 bolts though the bell/tranny holes and the slots on the stand and without the adapter arms with the tubes.

     

    Pulling MG engine

    It is no big deal to pull the MG TD engine and reinstall it. I would suggest he pull the engine, do a complete rebuild. If he doesent I am sure he will be sorry !!!

    I'm not really qualified to give you an estimate on shop time to pull the engine. Remember I'm just an amateur backyard mechanic that has owned TD"S since 1960 and has done a couple of engine rebuilds in my garage using a "comealong" hooked to a ceiling beam to pull the engine.

    I can't imagine pulling the engine out the bottom !!!!. I would think it would be a hell of a job to get it out that way.

    The biggest part of the job to pull the engine is stripping off all of the stuff like the starter, generator, carbs, exhaust, wiring, etc. You pull the radiator off, pull the steering column out. Pull the floorboards out of the car, disconnect the gear box, and then pull the engine and gearbox up and forward.

     

    XPAG Question, rebuild

    Is this engine a hard one to rebuild?

    No, it is pretty bomb proof, and is a typical British 1930's designed OHV unit, based on the 1140cc Morris Ten sedan of 1938. Parts can be had from Moss in the USA, or NTG in the UK on < NTG200@aol.com >. You really need a workshop manual, the only people whom I know sell them in the UK 'Octagon Car Club' UK 01785 251014 fax 248386.

    I think this engine might have seen some wear. The oil pressure is around 30-35 and if I run the engine at a higher rpm (sitting in the garage) and then let it idle, it'll drop down to around 20. I don't know what that really tells me tho', since I don't know what it's supposed to be.

    A) Oil pressure on a HOT engine should be 50psi at idle,( book actually says 70 to 40 psi.) There are many reasons why it can be low, and it is worth checking these out. 1) The oil pressure relief ball has grooves in it, and is not seating correctly. This lives under the big brass nut under the oil pump. It is just a big ball bearing, with a spring seating it. If it has ANY marks or grooves, fit a new ball, and seat it by tapping it firmly into the pump. 2) Excessive end-float in the gears inside the oil pump, letting oil go back to the inlet. The end cap is held on with 8 bolts, and there should only be 0.04mm end float. Worn gears themselves can cause loss of pressure as well. 3) Worn bearings in the engine, which yours sounds as if it has, hence the 20psi oil pressure. The crankshaft needs measuring to see if it needs re-grinding, or just new shell bearings fitting. If you can see the copper undercoat in the shell bearings faces, expect the worst! The oil pump is one of the best around, it will supply good pressure long after the bearings are worn....it is a common trick to put washers under the oil pressure relief valve above to 'boost' the running pressure!!! I hooked the oil pressure sensor up to the banjo fitting at the base of the head (above the cylinder section) as I saw in a parts catalog picture. Is this right? A) Oil pressure is measured from the BOTTOM connection, of the head oil feed pipe, you will get a few more psi there as well. (If I took it from the banjo that's lower the reading would likely be higher.) a) Yes!

    The 'hot' compression reading I'm getting is about 120 per cylinder. Do you know what this reading should be? a) On a 7.2 compression ratio, thats pretty good. Your cylinder bores might be in good condition, but lots of oil will mask worn piston rings and give you good compression readings. The proof would be in a long run, then the oil consumption may show you could have worn rings caused by 'ring-pumping'.

    My clutch rod linkage system rattles a LOT. (sounding annoyingly like a BAD rod knopck) Is this normal/fixable? A) The rod system wears at the holes, most people weld up the edges of the holes in the linkage, then re-drill them, fitting new clevis pins. There should be a return spring at the very front, on the side of the sump. ...other problems the engine suffers from is advanced wear of the rocker-shaft and the rocker bushes, as well as the push-rod ends becoming loose. The camshaft lobes also wear out, giving a very noisy engine. The camshaft bearings are pretty crude as well, but easy to replace.

     

    Changing a piston on a TD question

    I removed the cylinder head on my TD to have it rebuilt by a local shop. (By local I mean it's in the same state, 120 miles away.) With the pistons exposed I discovered number four had a chunk along the edge missing. This left a hole though which one can see the top ring, or a piece of the ring. I'm not sure if the ring is still in one piece. The chunk was nowhere to be found, but evidently it was too big to fit between the piston and the non-recessed part of the head that overlaps the piston. There was a perfect pattern of this overlap pummeled into the top of the piston. This explains the terrible racket that occurred on a couple occasions that I attributed to a sticking valve. (I'm a rank novice gearhead.) Fortunately there seems to be very little damage to the cylinder wall, just a few faint scratches. Here's the question: Can I change the piston by dropping the pan without removing the engine from the car? The engine was overhauled a few thousand miles ago (just before a long period of storage) and from what I can see the other three pistons and cylinders are in good shape. Do pistons have to be changed in sets? They seem to be sold in sets. How can I tell if the connecting rod bearings are ok? I would normally leave this type of job to my mechanic, but I don't have access to a truck and trailer. Thanks in advance.

    Yes, you can remove pistons and rods with the engine still in the car. 'Tain't easy but it can be done! (The difficulty is re-inserting the piston into the bore, past the crankshaft).

    However, a word of caution - The breakage of the top land of the piston suggests to me that the rings were not gapped correctly. If the top ring on No.4 piston was overlooked, what's to say the other ones were done properly? So, if you are going to the trouble of removing one, go for them all and check that the ring gaps are correct.

    My suggestion to you is to pull the engine, check the cylinders and do whatever is needed.

    Install a NEW set of pistons, check the rods and everything else that moves. If you don't you are liable to destroy the whole engine

    I have had my 52TD totally apart and put it back together. I just did a ring and rod bearing replacement on my 77MGB without removing the engine. That was not an easy task. It was exceptionally difficult to keep from soiling the crank journals. And---- that's an engine where the pistons can come out of the top of the cylinders! You may not be aware of the fact that the TD's rods are larger than the cylinder bore and must be inserted/removed from the bottom. It's much easier with the engine upside down on a bench or stand.

    Part2

    As several list members advised, I was able to remove the piston and rod from the bottom past the crank. I found this had to be done on the camshaft side of the engine and it's a bit tricky. The crank rotation, piston and rod all had to be manipulated in order to "sneak" the assembly out. Once out I could not get a socket to go over the wrist pin clamp bolt because it's so close to the rod. Horst Schach in The Complete MG TD Restoration Manual suggest using an open end wrench, but my wrench couldn't get a good enough grip on the bolt and it started to round off the head. So next I tried grinding down the outside diameter of my 1/4 W socket as far as possible, but it still wouldn't fit. I then used the flat side of my Dremel cutting wheel to grind down the ridge on the rod adjacent to the bolt head. This provided just enough clearance for my modified socket to fit over the bolt head. This did the trick and I don't believe I removed enough metal to cause any balance problems (I hope).

    Now does the new piston go in from the top or the bottom? I can envision the piston going in from the top and pushed down just far enough to allow the rod and wrist pin to be attached from the bottom. Now that I can get my socket on the pinch bolt, I could tighten it with an extension. Or should the rod and piston be assembled and then installed from the bottom the same way they came out? If done from the bottom, can you get a ring compressor in there past the crank? If not, can one compress the rings with ones hands?

    By the way, the shop manual seems adamant about the rods being assembled with the pinch bolts on the right hand side of the engine. Naturally the DPO had them in the other way. Should I turn all the connecting rods around the right way or leave them alone?

    Thanks for all the advise. You should see how badly the old piston is beat up. No matter how I get the new piston in, it's got to be a big improvement.

    I am pretty certain that the piston went in from the bottom at the factory, probably pre-connected to the rod. But, with the crankshaft in place you're going to have a very difficult time getting a ring compressor in there and getting the piston to enter the cylinder. I gave up on the challenge, removed the piston from the rod and pushed piston in from the top. In the original casting, there was probably some chamfering that made piston insertion easier. Once an engine is bored, though, that chamfer is gone. Somewhere I read that rods being in backward is a bad thing, and an explanation for it. Of course, I forget where any why, but a dim memory tells me that it had to do with the oil squirting out of the drillings and lubricating wrist pin or piston or cylinder wall.... I would turn them around. That, of course, brings up the further problem that you may not know if the front of the piston is facing the front of the engine. Is the head still off? Can you see any markings on the piston tops? It could be that he is 180 degrees out with both piston and rod, so all you would have to do would be to remove bearing caps and rotate the rod. That sure would be nice, and easy. And unlikely, according to Mr. Murphy, discoverer of Murphy's Law.

    Probably pre-connected to the rod. MUST be pre-connected to the rod, upper pinch bolt must be torqued to 33 to 34 ft-lbs or the top bolt will stretch and you have a danger of rod breaking at the top. Never hold the rod while torquing the pinch bolt as you will bend the rod. Hold the wrist pin, two buttons in the wrist pin holes and a vice are required before you torque the pinch bolt. But, with the crankshaft in place you're going to have a very difficult time getting a ring compressor in there and getting the piston to enter the cylinder. You can fit the rings with a jubilee hose clamp or your fingers, not easy, but possible. I gave up on the challenge, removed the piston from the rod and pushed piston in from the top. OK, but how did you connect the rod and tighten the upper rod bolt?

    In the original casting, there was probably some chamfering that made piston insertion easier. Once an engine is bored, though, that chamfer is gone. Agreed, the chamfer is gone at about +0.060" bore.

    Somewhere I read that rods being in backward is a bad thing, and an explanation for it. Of course, I forget where any why, but a dim memory tells me that it had to do with the oil squirting out of the drillings and lubricating wrist pin or piston or cylinder wall.... Cylinder walls need to be lubricated on the trust face of the piston, this is away from the camshaft, same side as the pinch bolt.

    I would turn them around. I agree, turn the pistons/rods around so they are inserted correctly. That, of course, brings up the further problem that you may not know if the front of the piston is facing the front of the engine. Check it out and correct the problem.

    I use a 13 mm socket and grind through one side on an angle till it fits over the pinch bolt head. You need to tap the socket on and it works.

    The Dremel cutting was a very dumb thing to do. The rods are already suspect in the pinch bolt area, you have just made them worse.

    No not balance problems , but what about rod stress risers and strength?? I can't believe you did this! BTW, in future, a much better rod bolt is a high strength socket head cap screw, 8.0 x 1.0 x 30 mm long. Piece of cake to now get an Allen wrench on the pinch bolt and torque to 33 to 34 ft-lbs. Now does the new piston go in from the top or the bottom? Bottom, tighten rod bolt in a vice first.

    Tightening it with an extension will never work.

    Probably not, I have used a jubilee hose clamp for installing rod and piston.

    If not, can one compress the rings with ones hands? Yes, it will work.

    Well maybe it's got to be a big improvement, but not if you proceed with inserting the piston from the top and installing the rod from the bottom. Guarantee if you do not torque the pinch bolt you will have a rod problem. That could lead to BIG expensive noises.

    I have read your note regarding the correct way round for pistons to be assembled in the XPAG block and would offer the following advice.

    The conrods must be assembled correctly with the gudgeon pin clamp bolt on the right hand side of the engine (ie on the same side as the starter motor ). The main reason for this is lubrication. If you examine the conrod you will notice a small hole drilled on an angle into the bearing and this is intended to spray oil up inside the cylinder bore, getting its oil supply under pressure from the main bearing when the angled drilling in the crank journal lines up with this drilled hole. The ideal time to spray the oil on the cylinder bore is is when the piston is at the top of its stroke maximum bore wall exposed ) and this will only occur when all is assembled correctly. If your conrods are the wrong way round you may end up with fairly rapid cylinder wear or seizure.

    Regarding the correct way round for the pistons, as I understand it , where it does not matter which way round the piston goes it is not marked with a direction indicator. When it does matter ( ie where the piston has a split skirt or some other feature ) the piston is usually marked FRONT. If there is any doubt consult the manufacturer or supplier.

    LISTEN. Put 'em in from the bottom after torqueing the clamp bolt. If you can find another rod to replace the "modified-by-Dremel" one, it would be a really good idea to do so, now. Broken rod=demolished block--not good. The hose-clamp trick works as a ring compressor--I've done it, from the bottom, in the car, with crank in place. It's a b____h, but can be done with patience. MUST have rods and pistons in right way 'round, or expensive noises are only a question of time!!

    The engine was on a stand, hence accessible at all points, else I don't think it would ever have been done sucessfully. I pushed the piston in from the top, using a regular ring compressor, slid it to the bottom of the cylinder with the skirt out far enough for the pin to slip out of the piston. Then placed the con rod, inserted the piston, put a piece of bar stock through the piston pin to hold it, and torqued up with an unusual thiin-wall socket. I really admire your idea of the allen-head pinch bolt. It would have been a lot easier to find four of them than to root around all over the county searching for a socket wrench that would fit.

    Put the piston with rod in from the bottom. It will go up far enough to the top to put the rings on with a compressor, slowly tap back down and then connect the rod bearings and cap. Changed several that way with engine in car and that's how I've done with engine rebuild.

    How right you are! If the pistons go in from the top, that really is all - the bores are too small for the rods to go in that way.

    If you really want to assemble an XPAG engine so that it will actually work, the pistons and rods have to go in from the bottom.

    When I was in college in the 50's, I had a TD with a collapsed piston.....could only afford rings, and they would last almost a year before they began to break up. I then put the car up on a homemade hoist and pulled the head and pan, took the rod and piston out from below, removed the broken rings, shoved it up through the bore, put on the new rings, used a hose clamp to compress them and carefully pushed the piston back down into its bore and connected the rod to the crank.....

    Having just completed the task I can assure you that it is a real knuckle scraper to compress the rings when reinstalling the pistons from beneath but I don't see how you could do it any other way. I used small blade screwdrivers and gently, tenderly, gingerly was able to compress the rings and reinstall the piston from below. I don't know how you could install them from the top and reconnect the wrist pin without inserting the piston so far down that the rings would unseat anyway.

    Am I to understand that you've done this so far without removing the head? I sure do think that your life would be easier if the took it off. Since you got it out that way, it says that the piston w/rod can be installed around the crankshaft. I think that I recall a slight chamfer at the bottom of the bore when I was inserting my pistons. I had a very short ring compressor that I was able to use from the bottom end. It would be worth your while to make certain that the pistons are aimed the right way, i.e., front toward the front, as someone else already suggested. I think you are correct in that the orientation is necessary for proper oiling.

    Part 3

    Now that I've pulled the bad +.020 piston, how can I check the bore to make sure the replacement needs to be +.020? I can't assume the DPO did anything right on this car. Would a feeler gauge with the old piston in the cylinder tell me anything? Does honing make a significant difference on the cylinder diameter? In other words, should the honing be done before the pistons are ordered?

    You need to examine the cylinder bore carefully for any marks caused by the previous problem. If it looks OK then I would think a new +020 piston with new rings is OK. Honing is intended to super finish the cylinder bore and remove the radial tool marks left by the boring tool, as well as bringing it to the correct size. The honing process itself is not intended to remove lots of metal as it is a finishing process, removing at most just a few thou. You should consider honing the bore only if the cylinder surface has a glass like finish, as such a finish will prevent the new rings bedding in.

    A feeler gauge and the old piston will give a rough idea on size but any doubt , get someone to measure it for you.

    If the bore is severely marked the the only sensible solution is a Complete rebore on all 4 cylinders. Do not consider putting in just 1 oversize piston as you will experience engine balance problems and possibly carburation problems as well.

    When assembling the engine again remember to get the rods in the correct way round.

     

    MG Cam

    Check with your local speed shop and get a Crane cam. After all that's what Moss is selling (so I've been told). I walked into my local speed shop and they ordered a stock cam for my TD and saved me over $100 from the Moss cost. They even got me new push rods for over $30 less than Moss. The wording in the Crane catalog about the difference in push rods was the same wording as in the Moss TD catalog - word for word, just different part numbers. My TD cam cost $140. You can probably same even more money by calling Crane direct

     

    XPAG Camshafts

    I understand that Crane Cams of Daytona USA make an improved cam and push rod set for the TD/TF.Does anyone know details and cost in the US?

    I put the crane in my TF-1500. Won't idle below 1200, but runs sweet above 2000. Cost was about $175 when I did the work, about ten years ago.

    The Crane cam is the one that Moss supplies these days. It's said to be the cam closest to the third and final cam that MG offered. Moss price 10/99 was $249.95. You can, I believe, order it from Crane. Moss part #340-002, Crane grind #553-03. Crane remarks that "oversize lobes are used to reduce wear. If stock pushrods are too long, use Crane pushrods part 905-003" Crane's phone is 904-258-6174.

    Rebuilt my XPAG engine in my TF this year and used a 3/4 race camshaft from Moss, part number 451-270 and their shorter pushrod set. The engine is running great but does not idle very well. Occaisionally the idle decays below 1000 and engine will not accellerate out of idle. I think this is more related to a problem with too much heat close to the carburetors (vapor lock) rather than a cam problem.

    When I rebuilt the engine, I found that the block and head had been ground on a previous rebuild to increase compression and power. With two head gaskets I have 180 psi compression in all four cylinders. Have not had a problem with detonation yet but have been mixing av gas and premium fuel.

    Yes, it's the same camshaft Moss Motors is selling in the US but about $100 cheaper, push rod set is also cheaper. They have both the stock ("street") and 3/4 race. Some local club members happy with the stock version.

     

    TD Cam

    I'm about to install a Crane fast-road cam (3/4? - this is the same cam sold by Moss as their fast-road cam for the TD) and an exhaust header in my 53 TD to help compensate for a 4.3 ring & pinion I just installed. I have a few questions for the collective wisdom of the list:

    1. I always degree in a new cam, especially a non-stock spec. cam like this. Do I need to use an offset key on the cam sprocket in order to do this? If so, where can I get offset keys with specific amounts of offset? Or, how do I make my own to the required spec?

    2. The cam calls for 9.5 compression ratio. I could probably get away with less, but I don't know how much has been skimmed from the head in the past. What is the original thickness of the head so I can tell whether more can be skimmed, or perhaps it's already at or beyond the required spec? Do I need to cc the chambers to determine the current state, or is there a more straight forward approach?

    3. Any opinions about 1 1/4 vs 1 1/2 SU's with this cam and header? Right now I'm inclined to use richer needles in the 1 1/4's in order to maintain the velocity of the intake gases. Any suggestions for SU needle numbers to try? Any other approaches worth trying? A supercharger would sure be a nice solution.....

     

    Tappet clearances and identifying the cam

    I have TD 25559 with its original engine XPAG/TD2/25939. The vin plate says the engine is 25939, the brass engine plate reads 25939 and the number stamped UNDER the brass engine plate says 25939.

    According to all information around, the tappet clearances should be 0.012" for any engine after 24116. But, the tappet cover reads 0.019", the original owner's manual that came with the car says 0.019" AND the tappet feeler gauge with the mostly complete tool kit is 0.019"! I bought the car in 1967 with about 75,000 documented miles and have no reason to believe that the cam would have been changed.

    The cam was replaced with an AEG122 in the 1970s, but for historical purposes, is there anyway I can tell if the cam I took out, which I still have, is indeed a 0.019" or a 0.012".

    One way to tell the difference is that the .012 cam has sharp "pointy" lobes. The others are more rounded.

    The TB/TC/early TD cam definitely has longer duration than the late TD/TF cam. It's the late cam that has the noticeably pointier lobes. You can't regrind a late cam to the early specs.

    In my experience Most MG Cams have no markings at all except the168553 (or later number AAA3096) introduced after TD2/24116.

    The cams do wear in use and its is about imposible to establish what an older cam is by measuring it,

    Ive set up a number with dial gauges, timing discs etc and always got most inconsistent readings from different lobes! And never anything resembling the MG Specifications!

    However the basic difference between a 19 thou and a 12 thou clearance cam can be got

    A way to check which cam you have (assuming an original Morris/MG one is there) is as follows:-

    How to determine which cam is fitted (See Octagon CC Bull Sept 97)--

    1 Remove the plugs so the engine turns easily.

    2 Turn the crank until No 1 inlet (2nd from front) is fully open At this point No 4 Inlet (7th from front) cam follower will be on the heel of the cam lobe (this is as you would adjust the rocker clearances)

    3 Set the clearance of No 7 valve to 0.012.

    4 Mark the rear flange of the flywheel pulley 9mm to the right of the TDC mark (=11 degrees), and another mark 11 mm to the left of the TDC mark (=5 degrees).

    5 Now turn the engine so that the pushrod of the No. 4 inlet valve just nips up, and examine the position of the pully relative to the TDC pointer on the timinhg chain cover.

    6 A 0.012 cam will be on the 5 degree mark, a 0.019 on the 11 degree mark.

     

    Advantage of late cam over early cam?

    What's the advantage of the late cam over the early cam (assuming there is an advantage)?

    However, all recommendations (several) I've read say the late TD 0.012" cam gives better accelleration and pulling power in the lower RPM range around 4000. To quote WFK Woods:

    "168553 (or later number AAA3096) was introduced after TD2/24116. It has very good low speed characteristics, hence good accelleration and pulling on hills. Its peak poser output is equal to, or perhaps a bit berrer than X24084. (the early cam) Use this cam ina any street machine, whether standard or of fairly high tune."

    BTW: I reckon my cam is on it's last leg, as it is at the minimum lift spec found in the shop manual. (But it IS in spec, and the engine is running fine.) Would synthetic motor oil significantly prolong the life of my cam? Synthetics claims to reduce wear, but will it really make the engine run longer between rebuilds? (This is the real question in my mind. Who cares about the temperature range, oil change interval, etc. I just want my engine to last longer.)

    Again, according to all references the XPAG cams are not

    long lived. So, if it really is on it's last legs, then

    synthetic may be too late.

    I remember reading that quote from WFK Woods (wish I could remember where), and I can't recall where it was I read that the Crane cam has characteristics similar to that third MG camshaft. All the engineering types around this neck of the woods agree that the Crane is the best to get (new) these days, because of its larger circle and smoother action. The take-up of the clearances may be more gentle than it was with any of the MG cams and it is made with today's metallurgy. Crane suggests 018 intake and 020 exhaust ( I belive that's what their literature says) and it is to those clearances that I set my engine when the cam was first installed. Later, perhaps 5500 miles later, I read a suggestion by Skip Kelsey that the clearances for ordinary driving (not racing) should be 014 and 016. I questioned this, and his reply was that he had got that from a Crane engineer, had run his XPAG engine at those clearances for 50,000 miles, and felt that low-end torque was better with the opening advanced slightly this way. I adjusted to those as an experiment. Engine runs better than ever.

    The loud valve clicking that was present at Crane's settings is reduced greatly, to about what I recalled from the old 2nd version camshaft that was in the engine. So, were I to do it again, I would rebuild with another Crane as I am quite content with it now.

     

    TD Engine, timing

    I'm in the process of assembling my TD engine. I have a new Crane stock cam and checked timed the camshaft according to the procedure in Horst Schach's TD Restoration Manual. My results are that the exhaust vale is closing at TDC and the intake valve is opening at 3 degrees BTDC. From what I understand I would need an key with a 1 1/2 degree offset. Am I correct so far? The book say if you are within 2 degrees of TDC don't worry about it. Am I close enough? I remember a little while ago someone was looking for a source of off set keys. Was anybody successful in finding a source and is it possible to find one with a 1 or 2 degree offset?

    -From what I understand I would need an key with a 1 1/2 degree offset.

    Or a crankshaft key with 3 degrees offset, but the cam key is easier.

    -Am I correct so far? The book say if you are within 2 degrees of TDC don't worry about it. Am I close enough?

    Unless you're a real fanatic, or you put it on a dynomometer, I'd bet you would never notice any difference. While reading the specs for my new Crane cam I found it to say that you can retard the cam timing up to 6 degrees to move the power band farther up the rev range, or advance the cam timing up to 6 degrees to move the power band lower in engine speed. With your cam retarded 1.5 degrees you might find it pulls a little better at high end, or is just a tad sluggish around town, or you more likely would not notice anything different at all.

    As the timing chain wears and stretches it will retard the cam timing a little. Are you using a new timing chain?

    -I remember a little while ago someone was looking for a source of off set keys. Was anybody successful in finding a source and is it possible to find one with a 1 or 2 degree offset?

    Well, that was me, and no, I didn't find a source. I did find offset keys a little larger for some American iron, but not small enough for the MG. I finally took a crankshaft key, 5/8 dia x 3/16 thick, and milled a 1/32 notch in opposite sides to make a camshaft key 5/8 dia x 5/32 thick with the 1/32 offset. This translates to 3 degrees of rotation of the cam shaft. I also made an extra one for a spare. If your TD key is the same size as my MGA key, you could borrow it for a trial, and if it works out return it (or another one) later. This 3 degree change would move your cam from 1.5 retardeed to 1.5 advance though. For just 1.5 degrees total change you would need a 1/64" offset key. If it was mine I wouldn't bother with it. Like the book says, anything up to 2 degrees is a gimme.

     

    Crankshaft Balancing

    How important is it to have the crank and flywheel assembly balanced during an engine rebuild. I have no knowledge as to how the engine was running previously.

    in a word VERY.......if you want a smooth running engine after the rebuild.

    Terry in absolutely correct. Go one step further. Have EVERYTHING that moves balanced - rods, pistons, everything.

    I always have my engines balanced just as a matter of course. If you don't change anything but the rings and bearings, you may just reassemble the engine. However, you will have a smoother running and longer lasting engine if it is balanced. The balancing relieves a lot of stress on componentry. Sort of cheap insurance.....

     

    Head Gasket Orientation

    I'm in the middle of an engine rebuild. I am about to drop the head back on when I notice that the head gasket doesn't indicate which side is up or which way 'round is front. The only marking is the manufacturing date. It can go either of two ways, the only difference I see is the way the metal lip is formed around the cylinder cutouts. The smooth unbroken metal lip is on the side opposite of the manufacturing date. The side with the Manuf date has separate metal "bridges" between the cylinders. Either way 'round all the water ports, etc. match up.

    This topic went through the list a year or so ago. The majority felt that the copper side should go UP towards the head - because as the smaller hunk of metal, it would expand and contract more than the block.

     

    TD Manifold Gasket Question

    I'm getting ready to put the manifolds back on my TD. Does the gasket go on dry, or should some sort of sealant be used? Also what torque value should be used on the manifold clamping nuts? Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the past advice. I would be totally stuck without the help from this list.

    Yes. No. 19 Ft. lbs. Lubricate the threads of the std/nut joint with a high temp thread lubricant.

     

    Silicon Gaskets

    Has anyone used silicon gasket?

    I thought I ought to try and do something about the oil leaks on my Alvis 12/50 engine while I am reassembling it. The three places I had thought of using silicon gaskets are: between block and aluminium crankcase to replace a paper gasket, and on the metal-to-metal joints between oil pump and sump and between a cover plate and sump (aluminium).

    It seems that there are two types of silicon gasket, blue and red, for different applications, but the packaging is not very explicit.

    What happens when having spread the silicon on the face and the nuts are tightened? The packaging says that any excess on the outside can be trimmed off with a knife or wiped off with a suitable solvent. I am not too fussed about the outside, what happens inside? How do you stop it squeezing into water/oil ways?

    Once again I dip into the vast pool of experience of the listers for suitable advice, please.

    The Red is for High Temperatures. The blue for cooler. The problem is the O2 sensors. I don't think your car has one. RTV cures with moisture. Locked in the spots you spoke of it may never cure. The "rubber worms" that break off, if you do not clean up, plug holes everywhere except where you want them to. It is good stuff if used properly.

    From my experience I can only say beware. As you correctly anticipate you dont know what squeezes inside the engine and it will end up on the suction gause on the oil pump or other places where it can do a similar amount of damage. At the risk of stating the obvious the most common cause of oil leakage is surfaces which aren't flat. I generally use paper gaskets and Hylomar spray on gasket cement sealer with good results however if the mating surfaces have sufficient area to facilitate the machining of a groove then one can use O ring material which is almost invariably better than gaskets.

    I confess that I used silicon sealer in several locations on my Triumph Southern Cross recently, and all seems well. If there is any doubt about the mating surfaces, then you must make a thicker gasket. I echo the concern of others that a thin smear should do it. I also tend to favor the outside of the mating surface with the idea that the stuff will squeeze to the interior edge of the joint and stop there. The same principle as a good fireman who can spray just enough water into a burning house to put out the flame and leave the house as dry as possible afterward...

    I have also used this stuff and would just add that some joints rely on the thickness of a paper gasket to provide proper clearances (eg bearing retaining, end clearance in some oil pumps).

    Just to add my random thoughts to the pile:- 1. In general, IMHO anything like plastic gasket etc is a waste of time! The only time things like this work is where you have a good enough mating surfaces that it would have worked without it. 2. You should all remember that gluing components together is a very silly idea, as they have to come apart again one day, and it may be a lot sooner than you expect. It took three weeks to get the Head of our Humber because some silly person used a paper gasket and some Goo. The whole front end of the car was suspended 12 inches in the air by the head whilst vast amounts of penetrating oil soaked in to everything. Finally the gasket had to be sawn partially through with a home made brass blade. 3. Mating surfaces should be clean and flat, gaskets of the right sought used (paper/cork/copper etc) and a light coating of grease (possibly high temperature) applied to each side of the gasket, they should not be glued in place with all these awful coloured substances. When you take things apart you should be able to undo some bolts, take off the component, take off the gasket in one piece and possibly even reuse it. Would you use a soft Rubber drain plug in your sump, no you would not for fear of it letting go and ruining your engine. Why then use it somewhere else for just an important a job. As was said (and I have learned the hardway) there is no secret to a good seal, its just clean, flat,mating surfaces, with a good surface finish, the correct gasket material & thickness, a smear of grease on mating faces, the correct torque on the fasteners. As an impoverished motorcyclist years ago I tried all bodges with sealers, its all a waste of time. Do the job properly take some time, it will save in the long run.

     

    TD oil pressure (1)

    My TD normally runs with 40 psi of oil pressure. It's now 20 degrees F. here in South Central PA. I would expect the pressure to read at least 40psi in cold weather but it reaches just 30-35psi. Should I be concerned? I still run 20w50 Pennzoil in the engine.

    Any drop in oil pressure is cause for concern. 20w50 is an excellent grade oil to run in XPAG engines. However, it may be a little thick for 20F (I also am domiciled here in S.E.Pa, just south of Pottsville) and usually change the oil in my TD to 10w40 for these cold days. Drops in oil pressure can be caused by many different factors, but considering the 'stickiness' of 20w50 at these unusually low temperatures we are having at the moment, there may be just the possibility that the pressure relief valve in the oil pump has become stuck open just a little bit, either due to 'stickiness' or to detritus in the oil. Try warming to engine for a few miles, do an oil and filter change and if the temps. remain as they are, refill with 10w40 and try again. The forecast for this area is that the temperature will rise to 50F or so by midweek, and if that is the case, then once again use 20w50. Incidentally, an "expert" I know does not think too much of Pennsoil. He tells me it leaves too much residue, and engines he services require a lot of sludge to be removed from the sump. I personally always use Castrol 20w50 and have always been satisfied, especially upon checking on the amount of residual sludge in the bottom of the sump. I find the oil to be reliable especially as my TD is blown with a Shorrock Supercharger, and the life of the blower is absolutely dependent on the correct amount of oil being metered through it's oil control valve. Any sludge will block the metering needle, and a VERY expensive noise will then occur.

     

    TD oil pressure (2)

    Is there a definitive "correct" oil pressure for a TD? I use 20/50 Castrol in the crankcase and the pressure reads 40-45lbs. when cold and 25-35lbs when hot and running.

    Ther seem to be a lot of schools of thought on that subject. I can only tell you about mine. I rebuilt the bottom end about 3,000 miles ago. Fully warmed up, it runs at about 50-55 psi at about 3500 rpm. Idling is at about 25-30 psi at about 500 rpm. This is using 20W-50 at ambients of around 70F. At the end of last year's July 4th parade, after virtually idling in 1st gear for 2 hours, the MotoMeter was at the top of the circle and the oil pressure was at 25 psi. FWIW, that's my experience.

    the workshop manual for the TD sez that "normal" oil pressure is 40 to 45 psi. That was not with multigrade oils but SAE 30 wt. I'd say your TD is about normal. Whats the pressure when motoring down the road and the engine is hot? Mine runs 45 to 50 (now that I've rebuilt my rocker assembly) when hot and under load and drops to about 30 when hot and idleing....I use 20/50 Castrol too.

    That looks OK for 20W oil. I just rebuilt my engine and oil pump. Using 40W oil, I have 60 lbs cold, 50 lbs hot. One thing about multi-weight oils: they are as viscous as the low number only. A 20W-50 oil is a 20W oil with scuff inhibitors to simulate the film strength of a 50W oil. When heated, a 20W-50 weight oil is probably about 18W. It will never get thicker, only thinner, when heated.

     

    TD -- The Search for Oil Pressure

    This car has the external and separate cast aluminum oil canister. There is an S-pipe from the pump to the canister and then a U-shaped pipe from the canister to the side (and rear) of the block.

    Right next to where the U-shaped pipe bolts to the block, another banjo fitting is used to run oil up to the rocker shaft and to the gauge. I pulled the upper fitting to the rocker shaft and ran the starter hoping to find oil coming up the pipe. Nope.

    The next thing I did was remove the banjo fitting at the pump of the S-shaped output pipe from the top of the oil pump. There I added a few squirts of 90 weight (it took very little) and then spun the starter. It immediately oozed the 90 weight back out.

    I tightened the 'S' pipe back up and then removed the U-shaped output pipe from the oil canister. Spinning the starter had oil spit out but not with much authority. Placing my finger over the hole and running the starter eventually over-powered my thumb seal so the pump was trying to work -- just not with any ambition.

    So I then removed the oil canister from the car and dismantled it. It was really, really, dirty with sludge and carbon buildup. I thought the bottom of the canister had a black rubber seal until I dug through it and found nothing but crud. I have since cleaned it thoroughly with kerosene and can now install the new filter.

    I was somewhat dismayed that I couldn't find any oil bypass inside the filter canister -- it seemed to just be a home for the filter. Looking at the manual, the bypass seems to be integral to the pump. So where does the oil go when it bypasses the filter? That is, it doesn't seem to follow the normal flow into the Pipe at into the backside of the block. Does the internal oil bypass go to the cam bearings from an internal routing to the front side of the block?

    Next project: I purchased a new oil filter from the Moss catalog. It is item #435-390 and looks like a paint roller. (Pictured on page 6 as item 128a.) I also bought the seal kit #435-408. When trying to put the thing together, though, the oil filter cartridge appears to be too long. I can install it into the canister and just barely engage the threads to tighten down the canister. In order to seal it, I will have to crush the oil filter 0.38 to 0.40 of an inch. Is this normal? The old oil cartridge appears to be of the same construction and it appears that its ends have been flattened to fit in the canister.

    So, what should I do? Just start tightening it down or do I have the wrong filter?

    I have experienced the same with the new Moss "Sock" filters. They appear to be a little (1/8") long, but once placed in the filter housing, and tightened, they are compressed, thus being "held" in place. At least they now have marked instructions on the filter. The mesh screen end is to be placed at the top of the cannister. It is to trap the fabric, keeping any stray media from being pushed into the engine through the "U" pipe. That knurled knob on the bottom of the oil pump is an oil pressure regulator. It was a racing accessory. It allows for increase or decrease of oil pressure, by applying pressure to the oil by-pass spring & ball. . The next issue is the pump, itself. I've got the car up on jack stands and I am peering up from the bottom. Hanging off the bottom of the pump is a knurled knob at the end of a shaft held by a compressed spring. I am assuming this is the oil-bypass control spring. What do you do with this thing? That is, is there some setting I am supposed to work towards? I am not too impressed with the service manual as it seems to spend effort explaining the oil pump I don't have.

    For those not blessed with such a car, the TD has an external oil pump. There is an odd arrangment where it sucks oil up out of the sump through an internal channel. The pump is driven off the cam and hangs off the left side of the motor near the front. Leaving the pump there are three, separate versions (depending upon year) on how the oil gets filtered then piped back into the engine. My car has a fourth variant in that it uses a Moss-speced disposable filter cartridge. Anyway, if that filter gets too contaminated, the oil pressure is merely bled off at the pump and back to the sump without being bothered with lubricating the motor.

    With help from the TD list, I figured out how to R&R that system and put in fresh oil. The little motor pumped 30psi on the starter without the plugs.

    Before screwing the plugs back in, I did a cold compression test and found the motor was blowing 165(-10) psi.

     

    TD's leak oil?

    The seal between the rear bearing cover and the sump gasket, a crude asbestos rope type, has not been correctly fitted, or has become dislodged during re-assembly. These seals are awkward to fit properly, and time must be devoted to their correct placement, or you will get what you have, a pourer, not a dripper. The correction is to remove the sump pan, and rework the rear oil slinger/rope seal gaskets. It may be necessary to fit a new oil slinger, and mate that by hand lapping to the crankshaft in order to obtain as oil free a union as possible. There is also a new proprietary rear oil seal on the market which will work better then the rope type. A word of caution, however. Make sure that the fault indeed lies at the rear end, and the leak is not caused by some other problem such as a leaking oil transfer pipe to the cylinder head. This will be obvious by visual inspection, when the motor is running. If you have any further queeries, contact me directly. I speciallise in the restorations of these treasures and, while I don't know everything, I do know a bit and will be glad to offer you free advice.

    Free advice is worth what you pay for it! I don't like to disagree, but Geoff has so many things wrong here, I really have to comment. There is NO asbestos rope seal at the rear of the XPAG engine, there IS one at the front. He's talking about the rear cork pan gasket. You cannot "remove the sump and .... fit a new oil slinger" and expect things to work. In order to properly fit a new slinger, you MUST remove the crankshaft. The problem with the slinger (actually the Archimedes spiral of the crankshaft) is usually more related to wear of the rear main bearing cap after years of running with worn out main bearings. You don't "lap the slinger", you fit it with even clearance all around, realizing that it only seals the top half of the spiral (the worn main cap is the lower half). After fitting, you drill for dowels and install. While the external pipe that feeds the rockers is a possible source, a MUCH more likely source is a poorly installed core/freeze plug at the rear of the rear cam bearing. I've pulled pans on engines such as yours and found the plug lying next to the flywheel.... One other thing can make T types leak like a sieve when there is NOTHING WRONG. If the oval vent plate at the top of the bell-housing is installed upside down, the "turbine" effect of the flywheel/clutch creates a vacuum and sucks the oil out of the rear main. There is a slot at one end and when installed correctly, it actually slightly pressurizes the area and helps keep the oil in.

    We can all agree: you didn't get what you paid for-a properly rebuilt engine. However, ALL engines have foibles, I wouldn't know the tricks to make a Chec 283 "live" and the best Jaguar mechanic in the world hasn't had the chance to learn what the particular problems of a TD would be.

    You are absolutely right in everything you say. I apologise for my errors. Tiredness is my only excuse, if it is permissible. The seal at the rear end is cork, and is squeezed into position by a 'sharp' edge on the sump pan. It must mate with the block casting on it's ends, and must mate carefully with the small cut outs in the pan gasket and/or vice versa. The oil slinger is the actual Archimedes screw cut into the end of the crankshaft, and the device which helps the oil to return into the sump, via this screw, is a semicircular aluminium plate retained at the rear end of the block by 3 small bolts, and positioned by dowels. The wear you speak of is, as you rightly state, often caused by the crankshaft running out of true due to wear in the main bearings, and the worn main bearing cap. I have found, however, that by carefully lapping the aly plate to the slinger it is helpful in ensuring a better control to the oil leak problem. After the 'lapping' process, it is necessary to adjust the holes through which the retaining bolts and locating dowels pass in order to enable the plate to be moved into closer contact with the slinger. In other words, to 'tailor' the plate to the circumference of the worn screw. And, yes, the crankshaft must be removed to carry out this work. Only then, when the flywheel is also removed, is it possible to replace the cam shaft bearing's core plug. As I said in my first communique on this subject, I don't know everything, I know a bit. I have just learned, thanks to Jarl, what is, to me, a fascinating tidbit, namely the part about the oval vent plate. That kind of knowledge comes only from years of experience, and I can't claim to have anything like 493 T type engines under my belt, but I do have a goodly number of first prizes awarded to owners of T-types which I have restored.

    Of course, we both overlooked another possible source of oil dripping from then bell housing, namely the oil seal at the front end of the gearbox. In the event the front bearing of the gearbox has deteriorated, together with general wear in the boxes' other bearings, the primary input shaft will wobble about, resulting in much unpleasant noise emanating from the box. The chances are that, with a box in such a poor state of repair, the front oil seal will have deteriorated, allowing oil to pass from the box to the bell housing. Mostly this oil will be slung about the interior of the bell housing messing up the clutch, but some will inevitably find it's way, by dint of gravity to the small hole in the bottom of the bell housing and drip out. However, I am sure this would not account for 3 inch puddles everytime the car stopped, or, if it did, then the gearbox is just about of oil and very expensive noises will shortly make themselves apparent.

    Second and most importantly I must agree with Mike, Geoff and Jarl that you do have a great deal to complain about. Your engine should not leak at all from the rear crank seal. I would not complain about a few drops after 50 miles, but any more then that is totally unacceptable. (At our MG club in Orlando, FL we used to judge the condition of a rear seal as follows. Shot glass size, OK. Coffee cup size, not bad. Luncheon plate size, join the club. Dinner plate size, keep you eye on the dip stick. Pizza size, time for and overhaul.)

    Now give and East Coast XPAG "Old Timer" a shot at your problem. As main bearings wear, the crankshaft is allowed to move up and down in direct relation to the amount of wear. New bearings, .001", worn bearings, as much as .005" or more. As the crankshaft moves up it wears on the rear oil seal (aluminum part) this must be replaced. As the crankshaft moves down it wears against the rear main bearing cap. When the engine is rebuilt and new bearings are installed this wear (clearance) which is now .005" or more, instead of .0015" remains. This is the location of almost all rear main bearing leaks on properly assembled XPAG/EG engines.

    There two solutions to this problem. One is the installation of the Moss Crankshaft Conversion Seal. Some people have had problems with these, but if installed properly, should solve your oil leak.

    The other solution is the one I have used for over 25 years, and has yet to give any problem. Have a competant auto machine shop, line-bore the main bearing caps and the aluminum rear seal. This will remove most of the excess clearance around the Archimedes screw. Infortunately any fix will entail complete disassembly of your engine, and quite frankly I am not sure your "Jaguar expert" is the man to do the job. If I can be of further help, feel free to contact me.

    Now, please for my info, if for no one else's, which way up DOES the oval vent plate go?

    Most have the word "TOP" on them, but if it doesn't, think of it this way:

    Consider the direction the clutch rotates inside the bell, if the slot faces "downstream" so that the air is thrown out of it, you have the equivalent of a centrifugal supercharger and create a vacuum inside the housing. If it faces "upstream" the air rushing by inside creates a slight venturi vacuum and draws air in - slightly pressurizing the bell-housing and helping to keep the oil in. Opening the slot a little with a screwdiver can help the effect. Another point occurs to me: when you have a grossly worn engine or one with broken top rings from excess revs, the blow-by can be so great it can't all escape via the breathers and some goes out through the Archimedes, inevitably carrying an oil mist with it. The latter applies to ALL MG engines. I've had MGB and Volvo B-20 engines leaking like a sieve from both crank ends even though they had full oil seals, and stopped the leaks by merely replacing the pistons! Now, everyone, a question - careful! this is a trick! Which way does the air flow through the little 90 degree hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner on a T type? (and when?)

     

    Rear and Front main oil seals

    However, has anyone had any experience with the front seal conversion? It is much less expensive at about $10 and may be worth a try.

    Did one on my TC at the last rebuild. Ended up taking it out and putting back the rope seal after I began to get some very scary noises from the front of the motor after a couple thousand miles. That cured it.

    I've been using these rubber lip seals in the fronts of XPAG and XPEG motors since the mid Seventies. Never, ever had a problem with them. Virtually every other engine uses a lip seal around the crank pulley, so all this modification does is bring the XPAG in line with modern thinking - at least, in this one small area!

    You refer to "scary noises" - could you be more specific? Squeals? Clunks? Rattles? And were you able to determine the source of the noise? What made you think it was the rubber seal? Is there a possibility that, in removing parts to access the timing cover to change the seal back to the rope-type, you repositioned whatever was causing the "scary noise" so that it stopped doing it? (Water pumps have been known to have their impellers foul the block.)

    Just finding it hard to believe that what works on so many other cars didn't work for you.....

    It was a whine/squeal which gradually got worse during a long tour aroung southern Australia. At first I thought it was the generator bearing, timing chain (not getting lubrication?) or water pump.

    I took off the fan belt and the noise was still there.I then took off the water pump and the timing cover (this was all done in a rural park (not fun!) In doing so, I damaged the lip seal. I could find nothing wrong. However, this left me with no seal and a visit to the local plumbing shop resulted in me owning a yard of rope seal. I installed this and that got me home, with no more noise.

    My local T series engine rebuilder (Ray Skewes) was not surprised when I told him this story. When he builds a motor, he has the timing cover and the sump assembled with gasket. A recess for a press fit lip seal is then machined in the assembly. He says this works like a charm.

     

    XPAG Front seal

    For the front seal on your TC, use CR 10049.

    What started off as an simple exhaust installation now finds me with most of the front end of the car scattered hither and yon. All kinds of things that needed doing are getting done, unfortunately under warm clear skys (well, mostly...) I just know that when I finish this all up and get ready to cruise the Wet Coast spring monsoon will arrive. My point? oh... yeah...

    Nasty and annoying leak from the front oil seal on the XPAG. This is the perfect time (I think) to replace it. Is there a modern rubber lip seal that will easily replace the rope? Anyone got a number? I have access to a good source of National seals so a National number or x-ref would be a great help. Any advice on this from the experts? How big a job will it be with the motor in the car? The bonnet, grill, manifolds, rad and a whole bunch of other thingy-doos are no longer where Cecil intended.

    Moss supply a modern lip seal which does a very good job, but I don't know the cross reference number. The seal impinges on the shaft part of the front pulley when installed, as does the original rope type. Sometimes you will find the pulley's shaft is cracked, usually around the Woodruff key way and that will enable oil to creep through, even the lip seal.

    I have no experience of installing this replacement seal while the motor is still in the car, usually having done it only at times when completing a total rebuild for a customer. The method I use is to slip the seal over the crankshaft when fitting it to the block's bearings, and allowing the crankshaft to 'push' the seal into the semicircular groove cast into the aluminium timing chain cover, which I have partially filled with Blue gasket goo. The sump pan is similarly treated, then bolted into place, slighty squashing the seal between the two parts, resulting in an oil tight fitment.

    The shaft of the pulley must be free from defects and smooth to ensure an oil tight surface/lip seal contact, and I have found it advantageous to smear the pulley with grease prior to fitting it onto the end of the crankshaft. This will prevent friction from damaging the fine edge of the lip upon initial start up.

    I think the seal could be fitted while the crank and sump are still in place, especially as the internal measurement of the seal is greater than the crankshaft, allowing a bit of 'wriggle room'. Make sure the grove is free from oil contamination before applying the Bloo Goo.

    I've also used the Moss lip seal. It's a loose fit in the circular space previously occupied by the rope seal and does have to be gooped in place. I recall using Permatex RTV sealer. I can't say if it can be slipped into place without dropping the sump. I always record any numbers on seals so I can get another locally if I have to but this one didn't have any markings. I'd just order one from Moss and be sure your pulley's seal surface is nice and smooth or the lip seal won't seal much better than the rope. If the pulley is worn more than needing polishing, You might take it and the lip seal to a bearing store to see if they have a "speedy sleeve" that will fit the pulley.

     

    Oil leaks via the back plate

    Is there a trick to getting the back plate on the head to seal? A couple of years ago I had to replace the head gasket, so I took the head to a machine shop to have them go thru it and check for any other problems while it was off. Every thing was okay dokey, but since reassembling it's always leaked a bit (once a lot on a rally, but that's another story).

    Also, On the rear plate on the head. Use a new one, and new gasket. Dont use cork. I have some nice asbestos ones. Also, dont use spoit lock washers under the four screws. Use German style wafer washers. This should stop your leak problems.

     

    XPAG Rear crankshaft oilseal.

    Does anyone have the ultimate answer to solving the rear crank oil leak which I have on my 51TD and which I do not want to have on the 54 TF which I am currently rebuilding. Here in the UK a seal kit is manufactured by a well known firm but I am told by people who have fitted it that it does not always work. I am also aware that a Mr Bob Schapel of Sydney Australia used to supply a seal kit which involved machining the crankshaft flange down to 92mm dia (except where the flywheel fits ) to accept the seal and the seal housing was attached to rear main bearing cap. Does anyone have details of this?.

    I am also informed that crankcase compression is responsible for forcing the oil through the reverse screw oil thrower, and that if you deal with the crankcase compression you solve the oil leak.!!!!!!.

    The ultimate answer is a drip pan placed under the car in the garage!

    The problems with the seal kit are now well known and to my knowledge have been solved. The leak has more to do with main bearing wear and crank whip and improper fit up of the scroll seal than blowby, however lots of blowby makes things worse. The most fool proof way to deal with it is described in an article by Andy Bradley at this web site: http://www.mg-tabc.org/ look under "Technical Upgrades"....this method is bulletproof...

     

    Rear seal

    Has anyone had success with the Moss crank rear seal conversion kit?

    A local machine shop just rebuilt my MGTD XPAG engine (due to a broken crankshaft). During the rebuild, they installed a Moss crank Rear Seal Conversion Kit, #433-415. I thought this would be a good improvement.

    I just finished talking with a tech guru at a MG car club. When I told him I had installed the crank rear seal conversion kit, his breath went away. He said, OH NO!". He is telling me that everyone in their club that has installed this kit has had a failure within a few hundred miles. He said the seal is not a good fit, about 1/32 overlap, will wear quickly and then spew engine oil all over the dry clutch.

    Has anyone out there had any success with the rear crank seal conversion kit? I'm looking for a vote of confidence. I looked in archives, but didn't find much. Some said if the kit was installed correctly, if the directions were carefully followed, then the seal does work. Any opinions or experiences will be appreciated.

    I've installed about a dozen in various customers' XPAG and XPEG engines.

    With the exception of one engine, which persisted in weeping about as much oil as one would expect from an un-sealed engine, all the installations were a great success.

    There are a lot of tricks to installing them correctly. I would not expect a machine shop doing their first installation to be aware of all of them so your installation may not be as successful as you hope, I'm afraid.

    However, if done correctly, they are really good.

    How about the GM small block oil seal. It works better than the Moss seal and is cheaper. It does require some machining, but so does the Moss. You can get instructions from <vintagemg.com

    Your response begs the question, what are the "tricks"?

    I have only installed one rear seal kit, it leaked. Stripped it down again by removing flywheel and rear main cap, leaving the crank in place, saw nothing wrong so re-gooped it and but it back in. It worked AOK. A friend installed one and it leaked after 25 miles. Discussion with Chicago Rawhide indicated a revised seal, with double lip, CR-37389, the extra lip is really a dust/dirt excluder but I guess every bit helps. (Moss supply CR-37388 seal, same dimensions but no secondary dirt seal).

    On another friend installation, which leaked, the CR guy suggested installing the seal backwards to get more positive contact on the crank flange with the lip seal. He said it might leak a drop or two being installed in reverse but would work. This was done and the seal is working well.

     

    Rear and Front main oil seals

    I'm in process of rebuilding my MGTD engine and I've progressed as far as replacing the rear main oil seal.

    I'm following the method in Horst Schach's book of refitting the crank over and over using machinist's blue to check the clearance of the upper seal.

    One curiosity. When I disassembled it, the upper seal had a rather large piece of felt kind of wedged underneath it, so it would also wipe the crank. Obviously, this was meant to reduce leakage out the rear of the engine. Anyone seen this setup before? It must not work, or everyone would be doing it, right? From my books it appears that there is no seal material used beyond the metal fittings. Is this correct?

    I've heard enough controversy about Moss' rear main oil seal conversion to avoid it, particularly for $200. However, has anyone had any experience with the front seal conversion? It is much less expensive at about $10 and may be worth a try.

    The piece of felt was someone's attempt to improve the factory's "lack-of-rear-main" seal. There's a paper gasket between the aluminum piece and the block, but that's all.

    Moss's rear seal has worked well for us but one has to follow the installation directions very carefully.

    The front seal idea has been around for many years; I was fitting them back in the seventies. It's very effective and requires only that the installer be careful to make sure the pulley does not have a groove worn in it from the old rope seal. If the pulley sealing surface is not absolutely smooth, buy and fit a "Speedi-sleeve" of suitable size - available from all good auto parts houses.

    With regards to the front seal, it works. Apply some RTV silicone sealant to both the timing cover and oil pan surfaces. The water pump cannot be installed until after the timing cover is in place. Notch the oil pan gaskets to accept the oil seal. And apply a little RTV there, to seal pan gasket to oil seal. The front pulley must be inspected prior to installation of the oil seal. Many times the pulley is cracked, along the woodruff key area. This crack will act like a fly cutter, and ruin the oil seal ( it will also destroy the rope seal).

    I also am not sure about the rear Moss seal, I have installed one, it leaked, I then reinstalled it and seems OK now. There is no felt or other seal material in the original rear seal set-up. The aluminum top half moon seal and the bottom half as part of the rear main cap make up the "seal". Clearances are critical for this system to work, about 0.002" concentric clearance to the crank is required. Friont seal is a CR 14005 lip seal and easy to install. No mods required to anything, just put gasket goo on the outer perimeter of the seal and install with the timing chain cover. You will have to cut two "U" pieces out of the sump gasket to clear the seal.

    I have installed several Moss rear seal kits and they must be installed properly to work. The main problem is to make sure that the seal lip is riding on the crank flange with at least 0.050" from the lip to the flange edge. Not a widely known fact is that the tube from the rear main cap should be removed during a rebuild. When there is a lot of oil to pass back into the sump, the tube fills and due to flow resistance ( the oil is flowing into a filled tube ) it cannot keep up with the flow. The factory discovered this and left the tube off the MGA main cap at some point in the production. A better fix for the rear scroll area leakage is to install a Chevy 350 seal. The mod requires machaning the crank, but I can assure you that the results end leakage. The front lip seal works well also, but care must be taken to get a proper seal around the outer edge of the CR seal as it doesn't have the proper cross section to fill the area provided by the sump and chain cover. Silicone only works if it completly fills the void. I have seen the results of putting too much silicone into this area as it finds its way into the oil return and into the sump. Remember, silicone dos not disolve and small amounts will find its way into the pressure side of the oil system.

     

    TD Tappets.

    But I do have a question. Never having owned a car with solid lifters, how do you know if the tappets are making too much noise and need to be adjusted (car seems to run fine). Also, I was under the impression that you could adjust tappets when the car is idling, but my MG workshop manual seems to imply to adjust them with the engine off. Should you adjust the XPAG tappets with the engine running or n

    Adjust them with the engine off, but at normal operating temperature. Don't count on changes in noise level to tell you when they need adjusting. Do it as part of your regular tune-up routine (every 6000 miles, or once a year, which ever comes first).

    Adjusting tappets during idle was a trick done by my dad on iron like the old Chevy stove-bolt six (from which, arguably, the B series engine descended). He said he learned it from his dad, which implies that it was fairly common practice in the early days of motoring. It's actually fairly convenient, albeit a bit messy. You don't have to move the crank around by hand, but it tends to spray some oil.

    I don't think it's a good idea with an XPAG engine. The idle is much faster, and if you pull the plugs it's easy to turn the crank around by hand. TD engines do make a lot of tappet noise, but in many cases this is the result of very bad tappet and cam wear (as it was with mine). The alloys available when the engine was built were amalgams of old flatirons, refrigerators and the odd Messerschmitt blown out of the sky, so wear is a very bad problem.

    Tappet clearances (specified in the shop manual, something like 0.012 for the intake and 0.018 for the exhaust) should be set with the engine hot (but off). I would urge that you take the side plate off the engine and take the rocker assembly off (perhaps half an hours work) and pull the tappets out and look at them. Mine were pretty badly chewed up (at 85,000 miles), and the cam was not in good shape either. Cams are available (from Crane), replacement takes about a day (no need to pull the engine), and the up side is that your engine will run much better. Tappets should always be replaced with a new cam.

     

    Valve clearance on TD

    Since my rocker assembly is being worked on what clearance should be used to set the tappets when cold. I use .019 when hot.

    Unless you get some authoritative advice, mine would be to set them at 019 cold and adjust again when hot.

     

    TD Valve Gap Lore

    I recently had the engine and head re-built on my TD. It's an older, "banana channel" engine, but I went ahead and had some work done to it so it'd have the bigger valves. I figured the extra 3-4hp couldn't hurt.

    I also had a new cam, (from Moss) put in, and this started the question that follows...

    From what I've read, Abingdon put different cams in the later engines, and by the early 70's you could no longer get the old ones. How this effected us T-typers was that the .019" spec for the valve gap went by the wayside, and we, (if we replaced the cam) had to go with the .012" that the later cams required. Pg 94 of the T Restoration guide confirms this.

    I have heard that by the year 2002 some feel that this is too tight, especially since the XPAG engine has a tendency to wipe cam lobes, (#2 comes to mind, and it was a bit worn on my TD) so some had taken to splitting the diffence and setting them to .015", and this was how my engine was set up after the re-build.

    Enter my father, who's getting my TD on the road since I've been called back into uniform. His dad purchased a TD new in '51 and passed it on to him when he graduated college in '61. Dad owned his TD intil it was in a wreck in'82. Point is, he knows nothing of this and insists that it should be set to .019" hot, and other opinions are so much, "folk lore".

    So I'm wondering: who's right? Or rather, who's most right? All opinions, folk lore or otherwise appreciated.

    Seems to me that one should set the clearances to the specifications of Crane, who made the cam that is in your engine. Some owners prefer different clearances, but you won't go far wrong using what the designers/makers of the camshaft suggest. You're right that there were other MG cams. The brass plate on the rocker cover showed the clearance of the cam installed when engine was built.

    Instructions for the setting were in the box with the new cam. I recently installed a new Moss "3/4 race" cam along with the bigger valves, etc. The instructions provided with the cam called for hot setting of Intake .016 Exhaust .018

    Although Crane specified .018 Intake, and .020 exhaust, their engineers told me to use .014 Intake and .016 Exhaust. I have done so since 1985, and it runs great.

     

    Stuck Valve on TD

    I just did a partial rebuild on my XPAG. I had the cylinder head done by a professional British car mechanic, new everything on the head plus hardened valve seats. I ran the engine in the garage yesterday for an hour between 1500 and 2000 rpm. All was well. Today I took it out for a very mild drive around the neighborhood. A couple blocks from home the number two exhaust valve stuck. It eventually popped back out and I made it home. Is this a big problem or just a normal thing with a recently rebuilt engine?

    what kind of valve guides? Bronze?? If so, they need an extra thou or so to keep from sticking.

    No - not normal and the head should go back to the rebuilder as the clearances are possibly too tight, or there's a burr or dent on the valve/guide thats catching and the valve stem might be scratched allowing oil seepage (now or developing later), or there's a high spot which will overheat and possibly cause the valve stem to fail.

    Having said all that - and this is not good technical advice!!! - many times if a valve sticks when new and frees again it will just work its way in and be OK. But there's no guarantee - take it back to your rebuilder! You've paid your money for a rebuild and this should not happen if it was done correctly.

    If I'd done this head and it happened to a customer of mine (God forbid!) I'd want him to bring it back to me to be inspected and fixed

    Did the rebuild include bronze valve guides? They have a higher expansion rate than the standard cast iron guides, so require a thou or so more clearance to keep the valve stems from siezing when the guides and the valves heat up. It's usually more critical on exhaust guides than on intakes.

    Not a good thing. Generally means that the guide is too tight a fit on the valve stem. When you run the engine harder and hotter the problem gets worse. Since the guide is restrained by the heavy head casting, when it gets hot it expands inwards constricting on the valve stem. When all is new, one tight guide usually means the others are very near to hand. When I had this problem I had the ehgine fairly hard for 1000 miles in one week, but it would never loosen up, had to pull the head again to resize the valve guides.

    I called my mechanic today about the stuck valve. I asked him if the valve guides he installed were bronze. He said no, and he wouldn't touch a bronze guide with a ten foot pole! He thought I should try a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil in the tank for the break in period, and that it probably wouldn't stick again.

     

    TF mystery, valve seats

    Over a year ago I reported the odd occurrence of my 54 TF "breaking up" while cruising along at 3800 rpm and taking on a very slight grade on the interstate. If I pushed in the clutch and let the rpms drop for a second the car recovered. The engine never died or coughed, and the engine would rev with the clutch in but would not recover unless it rested for a second or two . I could get through this without much loss of speed, but it was annoying.

    In other situations, or around town, the car ran great. In fact I usually forgot about the problem until I would go on a GOF, and drive for some time on the interstates to get there. Last month I drove from N.J. to Boston for the NEMGTR GOF and it drove me crazy.

    I have done the following. rebuilt the carbs, changed the needle and seats, floats, jets and needles.

    changed the fuel pump, blew the lines, changed the tank screen

    changed the coil, points condenser and plugs.

    It was even suggested that the air cleaners were clogged, so I tried driving without them. I also checked that the carb overflows were clear. Nothing helped.

    I bit the bullet and removed the head which was done three years ago to replace a burned valve and I when I had installed bronze valve guides with stellate valves so as to run un leaded. The problem was with the guides which apparently oxidized, would heat up and then move within the valve guide bore.

    Redid the head with old fashioned guides, stellate valves, and the problem is gone.

    Anyone else with bronze valve guide problems?

    I'm having my morning cup of coffee here in Grapevine, TX at NAMGAR's GT-22 and thought I would check my mail. By coincidence, yesterday we had a tech session on machine work on the engine, and the speaker, Bob Webber of SFD Engines in Dallas, told us that he no longer uses bronze valve guides for _exhaust_ valves. Largely because the exhaust valve just gets too hot and causes various problems, such as you describe. Although he still installs bronze valves on the intake side, he says he is also uses iron guides in many engines and is not sure whether the advantage of the bronze guides are worth the potential troubles.

    YES, YES, YES!!! Exactly the same problem when I restored my TF. In 1994 I installed "Stellite" valves and silicon-bronze guides. Whenever the engine got to operating temp, cruising, BAM, a sticky valve. Let off the gas, push in the clutch, the engine cools 1/100 of a degree, and you're off again for 30 seconds or so. My solution was the same as yours. I replaced the guides with cast iron. No problems since, and at least 5,000 miles. BTW, complained to Mike O'Connor, my Moss part guy back then (1994), and he said that my gripe was the first that he had received. Looks like I'm not alone anymore. My advice? Stellite valves are great. I put them in a '51 TD and my '55 TF and have had zero problems, BUT DO NOT USE THE SILICON-BRONZE GUIDES. Yes as said, the guides could have been reamed another thousands, but it was too late as the guides were moving in their bore.

    I'm not that good at the technical aspects, and rely on the pros for engine and trans work, leaving myself to repairs that can be done with a socket wrench. However the frustration of the last trip to Boston got to me, and I called around to my various contacts to locate a big valve T head, and negotiated a deal for a swap.

    I am told that the bronze guides oxidize, especially over the winter when the T types are rarely used. ( for those of us who have winter) . It just seems that I went through a lot of aggravation and costs to make the car better for unleaded, where there is no evidence that my non racing use required the modifications in the first place.

    I did not use hardened seats on the first or second head as I had been warned that they often became dislodged and could destroy the engine.

    This whole history should generate some discussion of whether or not it pays to modify the valves etc. for un leaded gas use, as the cure may be more dangerous then the disease. Maybe this applies only to T types as the later cars, especially the later B's were built for unleaded and the casting procedures for the head may have been modified to accept the unleaded valve train.

    I would be interested to hear comments.

    By coincidence, this topic was also covered by Mike Ash, Technical Editor of MGA! in a tech session today. He says he has a couple of cars that have done 50k to 60k miles on unleaded gas without hardened valve seats and hasn't had any noticable difficulties. He hasn't had those heads off, though, to see if there is any valve recession. He does recommend the stellite valves, whether or not you get the hardened seats and bronze guides. Other sources I have heard seem to support Mike's experience. I would be curious to hear if anyone has actually seen a head whose valves had receded due to use of unleaded gasoline-- I have yet to hear of anyone with first hand experience with this supposed phenomenon.

    I purchase some of the British enthusiast publications, which seem to reflect some amount of hysteria over this subject, since they are now phasing out leaded gas in that country. I think there is more concern than is warranted, considering the evidence so far.

    In any case, I have never heard anyone knowledgeable on this subject recommend pulling a good head just to put in hardened seats, etc. They only recommend it be done if you have to do work on the head anyway.

    I have read several different articles that insisted that cars with original never rebuilt heads which ran with leaded gas already have reaped the benefits of lead and will be fine using unleaded gas for the feasible remaining life of the head. However, once you rebuild, you should go the unleaded-head route or use an additive.

    I just put bronze guides into the TA and I'm leaving today on a 800 mile trip to GoF West!! I've had hardnened seats for a few years now...and the iron guides that the guy "knurled" had eaten up my valve stems and seals. Mike what clearance did you have on those bronze guides? My machinest said 2 thou minimun, more like 2.5/3.0.....Skip Kelsey been running bronze guides for years and highly recommends them. Hardnened seats can fall out if not properly installed.....problems can occur in all parts of an engine if not properly done!!

    My opinion is that fancy stuff for unleaded gas is not needed until you have to pull the head for other reasons, then why not do it, it doesn't cost much....The brits are paranoid on this subject with out a lot of reason....however given their driving habits, constant high engine speed to beat out every yank in a roundabout my give them pause. Over here where you guys don't put a 1000 miles a year on your garage queen, why worry! ;-)

    Wish me luck....I'm trying for the hard luck award and I haven't even started yet...Thurs evening one of my 6v batteries just up and died....a nother panic and its not even a year old. MOWOG forever!!!

    Terry, I didn't want to worry you. Obviously, my guides were reamed just a hair too little, as my problem was very occasional. I agree that no one should redo the head unless something demands a rebuild anyway

    The point is the guides themselves. Here in the northeast, it isn't realistic.to drive during the winter and the pro who looked at my head said that this inactivity allows the bronze guides to oxidize. He claims to have taken heads apart and found powder from the guides messing up everything. As to the seats, he feels that the modern engines with castings made for the new seats are better prepared for them , taking a 50 year old head and installing them, no matter how good the machine shop , will always be a risk.

    The real issue is whether the risk of something going wrong outweighs the need for it in the first place. My TF is not a garage Queen, its been coast to coast, all over Canada, and Great Britain. But I do not race it, drive around town most of the time (thats why I have kept the standard rear) and is really only runs hard when going to a gathering. Last year we went to Indy and drove 650 miles in one day on interstates in near 100 degree weather. At a steady 4000 rpm , its hard on the engine. Does that type of driving once or twice a year require a no lead head. I don't know.

    You are right, the British are nuts on the subject. I am a little less paranoid about the effects of unleaded., yet I am not convinced one way or the other. I feel the same way about additives such as "Relead"

    As to the seats, he feels that the modern engines with castings made for > the new seats are better prepared for them , taking a 50 year old head and > installing them, no matter how good the machine shop , will always be a risk. Mike, that's nonsense. The installation of hardened seat inserts is a repair technique that dates from way before our T-Types were built. The age of the head has nothing to do with it. Some heads are tricky (or even impossible) to install inserts in due to the way their valve pockets are designed, but that's not an issue with the XPAG/XPEG head. If an insert falls out of an XPAG/XPEG head in a car that gets the kind of use you described for yours, then it wasn't installed correctly.

    Bronze guides and precautions against unleaded fuel are two different issues, so lety's look at them sperately. Rapid valve guide wear has always been a problem in the XPAG/XPEG series of engines. Lack of lubricant isn't the problem. There are no valve stem seals in the modern sense of the word, so more than enough oil works its way down into the guides. Lack of proper retention of lubrican, however, is a problem. The real problem is incorrect geometry between the rocker arm and the valve stem. This puts a lot more sideways thrust on the valve stems than there should be, which accelerates wear on the guide bores and on the valve stems.

    Ideally when the valve is at half lift, the rocker arm and the valve stem should form a 90 degree angle. That is seldom the case in any production line engine, but even with all new parts the geometry on an XPAG/XPEG is almost always way out of whack. This has to be corrected by either machining the bottoms of the rocker shaft stands or by inserting shims under them, depending on which direction the geometry is off. On an old head that has slightly sunken valve seats due to many rebuilds, the latter is more common.

    On a side note, the practice once advocated of shimming up the rocker shaft stands to compensate for a radically milled head is dead wrong. This does give you back a reasonable range of valve lash adjustment, but it throws the rocker arm geometry way off. The better approach is to shorten the pushrods.

    Getting the geometry right does improve valve guide life, but it's still far from ideal. The friction surface between rocker tip and valve stem top is pretty small, and the rocker tips aren't very hard (especially if they have been reground to compensate for wear). Once the rocker tip wears, it imposes more sideways thrust on the valve stem even if the geometry is right. What we really need is thicker valve stems or a thrust cap to install on top of the stem. Even better, how about roller-tipped rockers!

    The rocker bushings and rocker shaft also wear rapidly, and the resulting slop imposes even more sideways thrust on the valve stems. Hard chroming the shaft helps somewhat in this case, but you still need to replace the bushings more often than on most other engines. Phosphor bronze guides help to reduce wear because they retain lubricant better, and because the material has a lower coeficient of friction. They do expand more when they heat up, so the cold clearance between guide bore and valve stem has to be slightly greater (as you discovered), otherwise when it gets good and hot the guide will clamp onto the valve stem. When this happens, the moving valve tries to take the guide along with it. Rapid valve seat deterioration due to use of unleade4d fuel is a different issue. Even with leaded fuel, XPAG/XPEG valves and seats go bad pretty quickly. The 30 degree seat angle is partly to blame. It doesn't provide as good a "wedging" seal as a 45 degree seat, so sealing is not as good as it could be and there is more chance of hot exhaust gas leaking past the seats. This causes the seats to erode more quickly. Recutting the seats to 45 degrees helps considerably.

    The materials used also have a great deal to do with it. All cast iron is not alike, and I suspect that the alloy used for XPAG/XPAG heads is a bit soft. The original MOWOG valves were of fairly high quality, but some of the replacements sold over the years have been pretty shoddy.

    Once the valve seats recede too far below the surface of the combustion chamber (either from too many regrinds or from long-neglected wear), the only choice is to install inserts. These days it is also common practice for older engines to install inserts even if the seats are not receded, as a preventive measure with unleaded fuel. The installation of inserts is a common machine shop job, but like any other machinework its success depends on how much skill the machinist has and how carefully he does the job. The valve seats are bored out to a slightly smaller diameter than the outside diameter of the inserts, giving an interference fit on the inserts. The bore is made very slightly deeper than the depts of the insert. The inserts are then pressed into place. If the interference fit is too great, the inserts or the head may crack. If the fit is too loose, the inserts may fall out. The inserts must be pressed fully into their bores. If they don't hit bottom, they will be subject to hot exhaust gas from underneath, which can overheat them. Once pressed in, the insert should be very slightly below the combustion chamber surface. This allows the machinist to peen the cast iron over the insert, helping to keep it in place.

    I've never used them, but as a further hedge against unleaded fuel some swear by stellite-faced stainless steel valves. Whether or not all this is really necessary for any given engine depends on how that engine will be used. If the car is rarely driven, ar is driven like an antique (heaven forbid the rev counter should ever go over 3000 RPM!) then why bother. It won't rack up enough mileage in the owner's lifetime to wear anthing out. If it racks up a lot of miles, especially at modern highway speeds, then I think bronze guides, attention to rocker arm geometry, hardened valve seat inserts, and high-quality valves are well worth the effort and expense. Basing opinions of the worth of all this for an XPAG/XPEG engine on the experience of MGB and Spridget owners with their BMC engines, as some have done here, is senseless. They are very different designs, with very different problems. > Thanks Chip for the excellent and trusted treatise of valve geometries > and the resulting problems. I always learn a lot from what you write. > > FWIW to the statisticians, on the Ocean to Ocean 11 years ago using an > engine with almost all new replaceable parts in my TC, I burned a hole > in an exhaust valve about 6000 miles into the trip on about day 18. I > was using standard valves from Abingdon Spares mating with steel inserts > in an alloy head, the origin of which I didn't know, but I doubt they > were hardened. We were using only unleaded fuel with an additive of > various brands thrown in each time. I think one or two other cars did > the same thing at about the same mileage, > > I've had the head off several times since and the exhaust valves are > always freckled which laps out quite easily. In other words, a > premature pitting. > > Is burning a hole caused by lack of lead, or by pre-ignition creating a > hot spot?

    Most inserts are hardened, so those in your alloy head (Laystall-Lucas?) probably are.

    A hole burned through a valve indicates extreme overheating of the valve, or a poor-quality valve that was unable to stand up to normal abuse.

    What shape was the seat in at the time? A lot of heat transfer from valve to head occurs via the seat. If the seat is in bad shape, transfer is partially blocked, so the valve runs hotter than it should.

     

    52 MGTD Valve Guides

    I recall some of you having problems with silcon bronze style valve guides. Was the problem ever resolved? I am getting ready to rebuild the TD and I would like to know if the added expense is worth it.

    Another question is would worn valve guides cause smoke to come from the draft tube, or is this like I suspect a ring problem?

    Presently when I drive it looks like a good amount of blue/black smoke is coming from the draft tube/breather pipe. I dont see much coming out of the tail pipe so it has me a little puzzled.

    We have tried bronze valve guides in several different engines. In some we noticed no problems but also no improvements. In my own MGA, I had to replace them with steel guides after less than 10K miles as I was blowing so much smoke out the tailpipe on the over-run...... My advice? Stick with a well-fitted set of steel guides.

    More likely rings, as the draft tube vents what's in the crankcase and smoke there is a result of combustion gases getting past the rings. Old oil will, however, smoke more easily than fresh oil. When did you last change the oil? And what weight oil are you running (XPAGs don't like thin oil!) A compression test would also provide useful information, followed by a leak-down test if you have access to the equipment for that..

     

    Sticky Valve?

    Today my TD suddenly started making a terrible tapping racket while at highway speed. I had to limp home at 20 mph. This has happened twice before in the last two years. The last two times the noise was much diminished after the engine had cooled off, and gradually disappeared altogether with gentle driving. It sounds like valve noise to me. Is this the symptom of a sticky valve? If so, is there any quick cure? Should I pull the head and have my mechanic rebuild it? (It's a long drive to my mechanic, I'd have to use a trailer to take the whole car.) Thanks in advance for any advice.

    Bummer! Did, perhaps, you replace the valve guides with silicon bronze guides? I had this happen over the period of a couple of years after I had the head rebuilt with stellite valves and silicon bronze guides.

    The silicon bronze tends to spall, especially when very hot after running a while. The valve stem seems to expand and small areas of the guide will yield up a small shaving causing the valve to stick open.

    I have had various opinions, but the most common seems to be to ream the valve guide a thou or two over the recommended size. This, however, leads to a bit more oil being sucked down into the cylinder and burned, but does cure the problem. Other say to use plain old cast iron guides and leave the clearance as original. I tend to prefer the first.

    If you havent replaced the valve guides, check for bent valve stems, overly worn rockers, or even a slightly bent push rod. Any of these can cause the valve to be pushed slightly to one side and thus hang up. Also check for a broken valve spring, excess carbon build up on the valve stems, or dirt or debris stuck under the valve head.

    My bet is that it is one of the above.

     

    TD Rocker arm questions

    I am trying to put new bushings in my rockers and am having problems and need some help. The rocker arm is of the early variety and is 14" long.

    First - the Moss catalog indicates that there should be springs on the arm - my unit has spacers. Can we both be correct?

    Some cars came with spacers. The theory was that the springs caused friction that would tend to cause valve float. The spacers were a 'hop up' trick used by autocrossers and racers. If you don't thave too much end play when everything is assembled, leave the spacers in.

    Second - the bushings from Moss have no indicator of how they should be installed. My old bushings have an indent that matches up with a recess on the rocker so that proper alignment is assured. Is there some trick here?

    The indent is made after the bushings are in place. They lock the bushing in place and prevent them from rotating. This job can be done with a wide bladed screw driver. Just make sure the hole in the bushing lines up with the hole in the rocker.

    Third - after inserting the new bushing in the first rocker, the bushing would NOT fit on to the arm. i.e. the diameter of the arm is larger than the diameter of the bushing. What should I do here?

    The bushings have to be machined to fit the rocker shaft. Take rockers & shaft to local auto machine shop and ask them to hone the bushings to fit. My machine shop had to buy a special hone, as the shaft was smaller than they were used handling.

    Several other things to look out for:

    Check the surface of the rocker that rests on the valve. If it is worn, the rocker should be resurfaced.

    Remove all the adjusting screws and clean out the oil hole that runs from the bushing to the adjuster hole. This hole gets pluged with sludge and prevents oiling of the pushrod. You may find that the adjusting screws will not come out. This is an indication that the screws are stretched and may soon break. They should be replaced.

    Pack up the whole rocker assembly and ship to The Rocker Arm Specialist in Anderson, California (complete address on the "Monster List"). They did my TD rocker assembly in 1 week at a total cost of $85 plus shipping. This involved reprofiling the rockers including hardening, new rocker shaft, new bushings, etc.

    Since having this done, I've had no more engine problems and am delighted with their work.

     

    XPAG Con Rod Torque

    I have a question for those familiar with the XPAG engine:

    Torque for the little end bolt is listed as 34 ft.-lb. in the W.K.F. Wood manual and also in Sherrel's TC's Forever.

    Skip Kelsey, who makes up little end bolts with a smaller hex head (so that you can get a normal socket on the head) recommends a lower torque-25 ft. -lb. and warns that the threads in the rod can be damaged by the higher torque and that 34 ft. -lb. for a 8 mm bolt is excessive.

    Skip has always given correct advice to me and so I'm more inclined to believe him, but I really am concerned about what the correct torque should be. A friend just had his TC engine rebuilt and soon after threw a rod, taking the block with it. The cause was little end failure. What the torque was I don't know. Any advice/experiences are appreciated.

    I agree that 34 ft-lb is too much, especially since the threads in the small end are probably already not in the best shape after all these years. I would guess that something in the range of 25 - 28 ft-lbs should be about right. Thread locking compound (Loctite or similar) is a must! If the bolt loosens, I guarantee you'll break the rod.

    What we really need is a redesigned rod with thicker cross section, stronger big end bolts, and a solid small end eye. A few years ago several people were experimenting with rods from other engines, but I've lost track.

    I have built hundreds of XPAG engines over the last twenty-two years and have never used more than 25lbs for the little-end bolts. None have let go. It is important, however, to make sure the rod threads are clean and clear, and to use new bolts if the threads on the old ones look even slightly worn or stretched. Also, always use a new 8mm lock washer.

    I agree with Skip Kelsey, especially as nobody used torque wrenches when the XPAG engine was designed, if in deed they'd been invented. Actually I give the little end bolts 26 ft. lbs. but believe the original requirement was a "firm pull on an eight inch Tommy bar".

    My XPAG, purchased in pieces, was resurrected several years ago from a severly abused state and has since been sitting on the bench (untested) waiting for the body job to catch up. In his book, Mike Sherrel was so emphatic about properly torquing the wrist-pin bolts that I jerry-rigged an open-end wrench into a torque wrench of sorts so I would be sure to get the required 34 foot-pounds. The original bolts showed no sign of fatigue or wear (that I could see with a reasonably careful inspection) and were reused.

    Now comes all this net wisdom about ~25 foot-pounds being wiser. What am I to do? I could easily pull the pan and loosen the bolts, but that sounds counter-productive, having already obtained the higher torque. I guess replacing the bolts and tightening to the lower torque would make more sense.

    Suggestions, anyone? Is there really any direct evidence that the higher torque causes problems or is this simply a case of the lower value being sufficient and perhaps more prudent?

    Speaking from a position of virtually complete ignorance, I would say the latter. I would also advise leaving well alone unless you get any evidence to the contrary (but then I'm a lazy so-and-so anyway). One would hope that modern bolts should be better able to withstand the higher stresses.

    I have only rebuilt 5 XPAG engines, but have always used 34 ft. lb. torgue on the little end bolts. I have never had a rod bolt fail.

    To add fuel to the flames, I have justdone the sums on a metric 8mm bolt (5/16 near am damn it). A mediumm-high grade bolt (10,9 for those in the know). The correct tightning torque (Max) is 33 lbft.

    I cant remember the size of your damn little end bolts, if they are 1/4"...........

    They are 8mm, with a 1mm pitch. The problem isn't so much the ability of the bolt to withstand being tightened to 33 - 34 lb ft without breaking. I'm more concerned about the ability of that fine thread to withstand the torque without stripping. A modern 8mm fine-pitch bold has a pitch of 1.25mm, which gets a better bite annd is more resistant to stripping. On almost every XPAG con rod I've seen the threads in the rod were pulled, not because the bolt was tightened beyond its limit, but because it was tightened beyond the limits of the threads in the rod.

     

    Torque setting

    There are only four brackets on the XPAG engine of your TD. Once the eight bolts are removed, the whole assembly simply lifts off the head. Torque value for the 10mm bolts is 43 ft/lb and for the 8mm, its 29 ft/lbs. In most cases, you'll probably need a set of four keepers to hold the bolts in place after the torque is set. The old ones may be salvable but many times the tabs are ready to break off from too much bending. Make sure you lay the parts out in order to reassemble in the exact order of disassembly. Especially the shaft. It has an oil hole at the rear bracket to pass the oil under pressure to lubricate the whole rocker set-up. If it gets in bass-ackwards... no oil and there goes the rocker bushings.

    There are homemade shims under the rocker brackets of my TD's shaft assembly. I am replacing one cracked bracket. The four brackets all have "22914 stamped on them and my new one does not. The size etc. seems to be OK. Should I be wary?

    Everything else seems to be in order.

    Dont torque the 8MM rocker bolts more than 20PSI. The prior specs given by Woods is not correct. The 10MM bolts should go 40-42PSI.

    Reinstall the shims as you found them... Probably they were installed to make up for shaving the head at some earlier time and is a recommended procedure under that condition. Sometime, when the head is off anyway, measure the thickness of the head to determine if its ever been milled. For now, you just have to assume that the shims are there for that reason and need to be kept in place. Jim

    Why not follow the Woods manual? Is there a reason only to use 20lbs. and not 29lbs?

    I have heard 29 by 3 sources. I just wish to do it correctly.

    I'd go with Skips recommendations. I, and possibly the other two responses, were quoting from the same WKF Woods book on rebuilding XPAGs which could be incorrect. We all know that just because its in print doesn't make it so. For a frame of reference, I checked a Mercedes book that said use 18 for 8mm and 37 for 10mm. The main concern is that they are reasonably tight and torqued evenly. The TD shop manual doesn't even provide any such number. Another reason you use a torque wrench is to keep from stretching the bolts to a point of failure, either immediately or in the future. Some strong armed ham-fists think that all bolts should be "good and tight". Since the metal expands with temperature rise, initially set the valve clearance a little loose like .020 or .021, then go back and tweak it up after you get the engine warmed up. Loose, noisy valves won't burn the valves; nice quiet, tight valve clearances will keep the valve from remaining seated long enough to transfer its heat to the water cooled head which results in a burned valve.

    Skip has good numbers but Chris is correct on the units of measurement. I didn't even pick up on that when I read it (obviously not very closely). Speed Reader? HA!

    I can't find a mention of the torque for rocker pedestal bolts in the TD book either. There is a spec in the B workshop manual, though, 25 ft lbs. Other torque specs for the B are: Fan blade bolts--7.3 - 9.3 Water pump to crankcase--17 Sump to crankcase---6 Water pump to crankcase---17 These do not seem very tight to me, but they are consistent in their "not very tightness", so 20-25 ft lbs sounds right to me for the rocker pedestal bolts.

    A few months ago, Chip Old posted some wisdom on this list about those shims under the rocker posts. He said, essentially, to remove them since they were put in on the recommendation of the factory, but the factory was wrong. As he explained it, the wear on TD valves and guides caused by side pressure happens because the geometry of the valve stems and the rockers is not 90 degrees when the valve is half way down. In theory, that's where it should be to minimise sideways pressure. When the heads were milled, we put in the shims to "compensate" for the removed metal. He says that doing so actually made the angle worse, suggested that one look at the valve action and see. I need to do just that. There are shims under my rocker posts also.

    Bronze guides and precautions against unleaded fuel are two different issues, so lety's look at them sperately. Rapid valve guide wear has always been a problem in the XPAG/XPEG series of engines. Lack of lubricant isn't the problem. There are no valve stem seals in the modern sense of the word, so more than enough oil works its way down into the guides. Lack of proper retention of lubrican, however, is a problem. The real problem is incorrect geometry between the rocker arm and the valve stem. This puts a lot more sideways thrust on the valve stems than there should be, which accelerates wear on the guide bores and on the valve stems.

    Ideally when the valve is at half lift, the rocker arm and the valve stem should form a 90 degree angle. That is seldom the case in any production line engine, but even with all new parts the geometry on an XPAG/XPEG is almost always way out of whack. This has to be corrected by either machining the bottoms of the rocker shaft stands or by inserting shims under them, depending on which direction the geometry is off. On an old head that has slightly sunken valve seats due to many rebuilds, the latter is more common.

    On a side note, the practice once advocated of shimming up the rocker shaft stands to compensate for a radically milled head is dead wrong. This does give you back a reasonable range of valve lash adjustment, but it throws the rocker arm geometry way off. The better approach is to shorten the pushrods.

    Getting the geometry right does improve valve guide life, but it's still far from ideal. The friction surface between rocker tip and valve stem top is pretty small, and the rocker tips aren't very hard (especially if they have been reground to compensate for wear). Once the rocker tip wears, it imposes more sideways thrust on the valve stem even if the geometry is right. What we really need is thicker valve stems or a thrust cap to install on top of the stem. Even better, how about roller-tipped rockers!

    The rocker bushings and rocker shaft also wear rapidly, and the resulting slop imposes even more sideways thrust on the valve stems. Hard chroming the shaft helps somewhat in this case, but you still need to replace the bushings more often than on most other engines. Phosphor bronze guides help to reduce wear because they retain lubricant better, and because the material has a lower coeficient of friction. They do expand more when they heat up, so the cold clearance between guide bore and valve stem has to be slightly greater (as you discovered), otherwise when it gets good and hot the guide will clamp onto the valve stem. When this happens, the moving valve tries to take the guide along with it. Rapid valve seat deterioration due to use of unleade4d fuel is a different issue. Even with leaded fuel, XPAG/XPEG valves and seats go bad pretty quickly. The 30 degree seat angle is partly to blame. It doesn't provide as good a "wedging" seal as a 45 degree seat, so sealing is not as good as it could be and there is more chance of hot exhaust gas leaking past the seats. This causes the seats to erode more quickly. Recutting the seats to 45 degrees helps considerably.

    The materials used also have a great deal to do with it. All cast iron is not alike, and I suspect that the alloy used for XPAG/XPAG heads is a bit soft. The original MOWOG valves were of fairly high quality, but some of the replacements sold over the years have been pretty shoddy.

    Once the valve seats recede too far below the surface of the combustion chamber (either from too many regrinds or from long-neglected wear), the only choice is to install inserts. These days it is also common practice for older engines to install inserts even if the seats are not receded, as a preventive measure with unleaded fuel. The installation of inserts is a common machine shop job, but like any other machinework its success depends on how much skill the machinist has and how carefully he does the job. The valve seats are bored out to a slightly smaller diameter than the outside diameter of the inserts, giving an interference fit on the inserts. The bore is made very slightly deeper than the depts of the insert. The inserts are then pressed into place. If the interference fit is too great, the inserts or the head may crack. If the fit is too loose, the inserts may fall out. The inserts must be pressed fully into their bores. If they don't hit bottom, they will be subject to hot exhaust gas from underneath, which can overheat them. Once pressed in, the insert should be very slightly below the combustion chamber surface. This allows the machinist to peen the cast iron over the insert, helping to keep it in place.

    I've never used them, but as a further hedge against unleaded fuel some swear by stellite-faced stainless steel valves. Whether or not all this is really necessary for any given engine depends on how that engine will be used. If the car is rarely driven, ar is driven like an antique (heaven forbid the rev counter should ever go over 3000 RPM!) then why bother. It won't rack up enough mileage in the owner's lifetime to wear anthing out. If it racks up a lot of miles, especially at modern highway speeds, then I think bronze guides, attention to rocker arm geometry, hardened valve seat inserts, and high-quality valves are well worth the effort and expense. Basing opinions of the worth of all this for an XPAG/XPEG engine on the experience of MGB and Spridget owners with their BMC engines, as some have done here, is senseless. They are very different designs, with very different problems.

    Just read and printed your treatise on valves in the XPAG/XPEG and found it very interesting and informative. I wonder if we could coerce you into providing a little additional insight into the valve geometry subject. I get the general idea of what was said but there's more to it I'm sure. What do you look for and how do you determine a need for correction in the valve, rocker and push rod relationship? I'm looking forward to your possible response much the same as I used to anticipate your words of wisdom in the many Sacred Octagon issues of years ago.

     

    Bearings don't fit, now what?

    Let's see if there is anyone out there (yet) that can advise me on a TECHNICAL QUESTION.

    I have 53TD, with the engine just out of the machine shop. Put the cam in and now is on the stand. Since I could not get anywhere with my engine due to problem below, I decided to sandblast the entire frame this weekend then prime and paint it. Turned out pretty good. I am following Horst Schach's book cover to cover but he leaves out many things, commonly called details. Anyway, my question is I am attempting to put the main bearings in and there is about a 1/8" gap between the bearing and the cap or block (bearing too wide). I did not want to force the bearings in just yet. Is this normal? Also, the center bearing goes in OK over the dowel pin in the block but the edges of the bearing do not quite line up even with the edges in the block. Is this normal?

    this is a common problem with the new center main bearings sold today. The fix, however, is simple....

    First, the locating hole......a small rattail file should be used to carefully ovalize the hole until it fits over the locating dowel in such a way as to enable the bearing flanges to fit the saddle correctly.

    Second, the fit into the crankshaft.......this will need a pair of calipers, a set of feeler gauges, some 400grit wet/dry paper, a can of WD40 and a surface plate (or piece of window glass laid flat and taped down so it can't move). Measure the width of the bearing at each end and in the middle. Determine which is the forward side of the bearing (toward the front of the engine) when it is installed. Spray a patch of the paper with WD 40, then rub the forward edge of the bearing - making sure your pressure is even across the full width of the bearing - on the paper. Spray fresh WD40 from time to time.

    Keep checking with your caliper to make sure you are taking the metal off evenly. Keep trying the bearing in the crank until it will fit and allow you to place a three-thousandths feeler gauge all the way around. Repeat the process on the other bearing half, making sure you remove metal only from the forward side of that half, too.

    I need to clarify the 1/8" problem, though. I guess I should have said length when I said width. When I set a main bearing into the block, the bearing does not seat all the way down into the block. There is a 1/8" gap between the bearing and the seat in the block. It is like the bearing is "bridging" it's respective block cavity. I am sure I could press the bearing half down into the block but wanted to confirm that this is normal before I did so.

     

    45mm Core Plugs

    Does anybody out there in T-land have a source for 45 mm core plugs as needed for the camshaft hole? The ones coming from some vendors are only 44.5 mm. Last time I redid the engine I was able to get a 45 mm plug from a Volvo dealer, but not this time.

    I believe if you measure the hole the core plug is meant to fill you will find that it is slightly larger than the plug itself. The reason for this is that it is meant to flatten and expand in diameter when you whack it to seat it.

    I go to any of the larger auto parts stores and ask for inch-sized plugs. Many such stores carry the Dorman brand which are usually in the large orange metal cabinets.

    I believe I last used 1-7/8". Once sealed and driven home in the blockit's a perfect fit.

    I hate to disagree with you but the 1 7/8 is wrong. 44.5 mm should work just fine. The large core plugs on this engine are a weird size. I have never found them in any US stores.

    The pug that I knocked out has '45 mm' stamped on the back and was a perfect fit. I seem to recall that it came from a Volvo dealer. The 1 7/8 plug would be

    too large and the 44.5 mm plug doesn't expand enough to fill the gap. I don't mind using a sealant for 'belt and suspenders', but I don't want to trust it to hold the plug in place.

    I have 45 mm core plugs to suit the cam bearing. Also have correct size 35 mm small and 48 mm large core plugs for the water core plugs in the block. American inch 1 3/8" core plugs work OK for the 35 mm. However 1 7/8" plugs are really too small to suit the 48 mm size.

    Abingdon Spares had the 45 mm ones (actually 44.9). Now I'm discovering a size issue with Moss' main bearings. I'm used to having the center bearing be a snug fit in the cap, this one fell right out. Did a check with plastigage and found .003" clearance. The slightly used bearing that I was replacing for general principals measured .002". Frustrating!

     

    XPAG rod journals.

    I am re-assembling my TF engine following a rebore & crank regrind, and I have a couple of tight bigends. As I understand it the standard journal size was 45 mm dia or 1.772 dia inch in old money. Mine is now on max regrind ie -.050". or 1.722"dia. The diametral clearance between journal and shell should be .0005" to .002". Can someone tell me whether the required clearance is provided on the journal or the shells?.

    The bores of the two rods in question were out of round but I have had those rectified. I am still in the process of checking everything dimensionally and tomorrow I will pull offending rods out (again) and check that the engine man has sized them correctly.

    Finally ,is it possible to get a thick walled shell once in a while?

    The crank should be ground to the exact dimension given and the rod bearing shells are supposed to be supplied to give the proper clearance. I have always supplied the grinder with the rods and the new shells so they can verify the crank is ground to the proper clearance. A good shop should have asked for them on a unique job like this.

    You can easily check the clearance yourself by using a product called "plastigage." This is a plastic spagetti placed between the bearing shells and the crank, and the rod caps tightened. The caps are carefully removed and the squished material compared to a chart which will show the clearance. Main bearings should also be checked.

    By having the rods fixed, I assume you mean the big ends were out of round and they were reconditioned. That is the caps and rods mating suffaces ground slightly, the cap attached to the rod and the whole assembly line bored. This should be a standard proceedure, or check on all rods during a rebuild. All rods should also have been checked for twist, and parallel big and little ends.

    Also make sure there is absolutely no lubricant, grease, dirt, etc, between the shell and the rod itself, and the tangs and ends are correctly located.

     

    XPAG Rocker bushes

    I am about to replace the rocker bushes in my TF. Can someone advise me which way around they go in?. I know that the oil hole in the new bush should match up with the hole in the rocker arm, but the new bushes have an oil groove which covers about 75% of the inner surface ,leaving about 25% plain. Should this plain part be positioned in the area of greater thrust ie at the bottom of the rocker?. Or maybe it does not matter as long as the oil holes match. The old bushes were assembled wrongly and an oil hole drilled following assembly so I do not have a pattern to work to. I have also been told that some later rocker bushes do not have oil grooves at all, providing greater wear area.

    The oil groove should be at the bottom. This will position it in roughly opposite the oil hole in the rocker shaft. The rocker shaft should be positioned such that the oil feed holes to the rockers are on top. The majority of wear will be at the bottom of the rocker shaft, so you want the oil groove there so as to provide a feed of oil.

     

    Breather Hole

    I'm doing a lube job on my '52 and have run into a problem... In Knudson's "T-type Restoration Handbook" he states that on the top left side of the rear-end there's a breather, (or pressure) hole that he always runs a coat hanger through to make sure it's clear else the gear oil will blow through the axle seals when it heats up, due to pressure I presume.

    In any event, I can't find the hole on my TD's rear end, nor can I find a reference to it in either the TD Operator's or Shop manuals. I'm hoping that Knudson's reference is an oversight on his part as he doesn't say if he's talking about a TC, TD or TF. However if it's not can someone out there put me on to where to look for the hole on the TD?

    all rear axles have to have a breather hole some where....if I remember correctly, on the TD it is on top of the axle about a 1/3 of the way out from center...others will know better. Its about 3/16 and hard to see...and often gets covered with mud and dirt and grease....its there somewhere.

    It's there, make no mistake. But sometimes it's covered over by one of the brake pipe straps, and sometimes by dirt.

    Yes and usually covered by the wrap around brake line clip tp keep dirt out. Check the RHS.

     

    Rebuilding TD water pumps:

    The main problems with pulley wobble comes from two sources.

    1) Incorrect assembly. A lot of care must be exercised when assembling the pump when using the felt oil seal under the pulley. The felt seal should be installed ON THE PULLEY BEFORE it is attached to the shaft. If the seal is placed on the shaft and inside the housing before the pulley is added, portions of the seal get caught between the pulley boss and the dished washer (retaining cover). This keeps keeps the pulley from abuting the washer cover. AS the pump runs, the felt gets chewed up into fragments which work out and the pulley is now loose on the shaft.

    This same problem with the felt seal getting in the way occurs with the output flange on the transmission tailpiece which also calls for a special method of assembly.

    2) Incorrect assembly of the castilated nut. The original split pin hole was probably drilled AFTER assembly to insure that the hole would align after the nut was tightened. Consequently it would always "line up." Some times the nut when tight doesn't line up correctly with the hole in the shaft because of bearing replacement. If it doesn't the nut should be removed, and the bottom of the nut honed on 360 carbide paper on a flat surface until you get the castilations to match the split pin hole when the nut is properly tightened. Another option may be to replace the castilated nut with a self locking nut, but I've never tried that.

     

    TD Flywheel

    I ordered a new ring gear for my flywheel from Moss. I have the early 10 3/8" I.D style. The new one looks as if the I.D. is correct but the O.D. is definitely different. The old one measures about 11/3/4" O.D. and the new one measures about 12 1/4" O.D. Can anyone tell me if this will work and what is the correct O.D. for the early ring gear.

    both ring gear ODs are the same for early and late TD flywheel and this is approx 12 1/8". Bore for the early is approx 10 3/8" as you say and both have 120 teeth. Bore for the late is approx. 10 3/4". Sounds like Moss supplied an early ring gear as ordered.

    I assume of course that you have the original TD flywheel and your old TD ring gear is correct. However, I'll bet you have a TC ring gear on the flywheel, which has an ID of 10 3/8" and an OD of approx. 11 7/8" but has only 93 teeth. The TD starter will not work on the TC ring gear.

    Do you have a TC starter on the car? Larger in diameter than the TD unit and with 10 teeth?.

     

    Motor: After rebuild

     

    Starting after a rebuild

    Before you start your XPAG ENGINE, If at all possible, pressure oil it with an outside pressure/oil bottle. Then start the engine and bring it right up to 1500/2000 RPM. Dont let it idle at less than 1500 RPM. This is very important in setting the cam. After running it or driveing it for approx. one hour, you can set normal idle 900/1000 RPM. For break in use a good heavy duty detergent oil SAE 30. Once the engine is broken in, you can go to multi grade. I prefer Pure synthetic SAE 20-50.

    I'm having a problem that is giving me more trouble than I would expect. I'm about to start the engine on a TD that hasn't been run in several years, and I felt that I should crank up oil pressure before attempting to fire it up. I have primed the pump by pumping oil into the oil gallery on the side of the engine, and by opening a plug on the top of the oil filter housing and pouring oil in there until it runs out of the oil gallery. I've also had the pan off and inspected the pickup and drive, which are fine. The car has the later style pump, with a regular canister type filter.

    The pump won't come off the side of the engine without some disassembly of the steering shaft, and raising the motor up off its mounts. I would like to avoid doing that. I figure that it should pump alright -- though I've never seen the engine run, I know it had oil pressure the last time it was run. Does anyone know a trick for priming this pump? I've been through this with other cars, but never had so much trouble.

    What you have done so far is all good. However, my experience has been that an air bubble can form inside the oil filter canister, which prevents correct flow of the oil. Try slackening the canister a bit,(with a large drip pan underneath) and again priming. If you perceive a sudden 'burp' of air/oil, retighten the cannister and try spinning the motor, to ascertain if oil pressure is building up. If you do not wish to slacken the cannister, then again removing the filler plug on the pump/cannister casting will facilitate the 'burping' process. Or, as an alternative, jack up one of the rear wheels, place the transmission in top gear AND with the ignition in the OFF position, have an assistant rotate the rear wheel BACKWARDS. At the same time, try repriming the pump as you have been doing. It is a good idea from both a safety point of view, and for ease to the wheel rotator, to remove the sparking plugs. Periodically try spinning the engine on the electrical starter mechanism, and watch for oil pressure to show.

    You can use an "engine pre-oiler". This device is used by professional engine rebuilders. You can probably borrow/rent this locally. Basically, it is a pressurized container containing 1-4 qts of motor oil and is connected to the block at the oil pressure sending unit port. After ensuring a good seal, a valve is opened which charges the entire lubrication system. I borrowed one from the engine rebuilder for my car (1500 Midget) and it worked great. Hope this helps.

    Thanks for the responses to my oil priming problem. I had never had so much trouble pumping up oil pressure before starting an engine -- especially one with a so-called "self-priming" pump! I've resurrected many engines that have sat unused for years, and this was the most difficult one I've seen, in terms of getting the oil to flow.

    I've succeeded in getting oil pressure now, and started the engine successfully. This pump is made with two ports that seem to be intended specifically for priming it. One is on the block, directly above the pump, and the other is on the pump housing near the oil filter canister. When I was failing to get pressure, I was pumping oil into the port by the filter, and watching it run out of the oil galley at an open port. Cranking the engine would not produce flow in the galley. When I succeeded, I pumped oil into the port on the block, and watched it come out near the filter. Lots of air bubbles came out too, and when they stopped I tried cranking the engine again. I got a good gusher of oil from the oil galley with only a little cranking. Then I buttoned everything up and watched oil come out at the rockers.

    I think one of the keys to success here was using a large syringe, instead of a pump oiler, to put the oil into the system. The syringe could put a lot of oil in all at once. I guess the oil must need to fill the passages and the filter thoroughly, in order to force the air out. Someone suggested using a preoiling device made specifically to pressurize the system -- I'm sure that would work well if you had one at hand, much as an AcuSump system works on a race engine.

    I guess "self-priming", in the context of this car, means that you can prime it yourself, if you know how.

     

    Priming the oil pump

    Does anyone have an easy, effective way to prime an oil pump on an early TD?

    Remove the key from the ignition and jack up one rear wheel so that it is just clear of the ground. Remove the oil pump's priming plug and the sparking plugs. Place the gearlever in the top gear position. Have an assistant slowly turn the rear wheel BACKWARDS. While the engine is being turned backwards, inject engine oil by means of an oil can with a spout into the pump's orifice. After about a 1/4 pint has been injected, replace the priming plug, place gear in neutral, and spin the engine on the starter. If no pressure, repeat the process. May not be easy, but it is certainly effective. Correction: I should have said place the gear lever in first gear.

    Thanks for the help. However, my TD is an early example. The oil pump doesn't have a priming plug.

    On the early pumps, why not remove the oil filter line and prime? Maybe not as fast as the later models, but should work since the outlet hole is at the end of the gears.

    I suspect that my version is actually the same but I take more words to describe it. i.e. Before fitting the banjo bolt to the top of the new oil filter fill the filter with oil. Refit, but do not tighten, the banjo bolt to the filter top. Undo and remove the banjo bolt, which attaches the pump to filter oil pipe, at the pump and swing the pipe to one side. Now fill the pump with oil. Reconnect the oil pipe to the pump by replacing the banjo bolt and tighten both banjo bolts. With plugs removed and ignition turned off turn the motor until oil pressure is achieved.

     

    XPAG Oil Pump Prime Question

    I recently did a partial engine overhaul on my '52 TD over a seven month period. When it was time to start her up, I experienced the dreaded lost oil pump prime. My pump is an early model without the priming plug. I did get the oil pressure back, but it took a great deal of cranking (and I did all the tricks like turning the engine backwards, etc.). This is scary turning the engine over and over with zilch on the oil pressure gauge, even when you know there's lots of assembly lube inside. (Not to mention the wear and tear on the starter.) I also lost prime once after an extended storage period of several years. That time there was no assembly lube! I never want to go through this again! How long does it take for the pump to loose it's prime? I want to make sure I start the engine often enough to avoid this problem. Indiana winters have about three nasty months that are unfit for classic cars, but I will start up the engine in the garage if necessary.

    BTW, under regular use the pressure comes up quickly and runs 50 psi after warm up.

    When I worked in an automotive machine shop the procedure was to pack the rebuilt engine's oil pump with vaseline. This was it's "prime". As far as losing prime I suspect a leak from the cap to pump joint?

     

    Cold Valve Clearance

    I'm finishing an engine overhaul on my TD. I know the valve clearance should be .019 hot, but what should I set it for cold before it's started? The shop manual says nothing about a cold setting. T

    The first consideration is whether, in fact, the cam in your engine requires the 19 thou clearance called for on the valve cover plate! If the engine was just rebuilt it may have a newer cam requiring a more modern, smaller clearance (or maybe even different clearances for intake and exhaust). Once you've checked that point.

    The answer to your question is to add one thousandth for cold settings. As a rule, the heat in a hot engine closes gaps by about a thousandth, so adding one when cold will get you into a good ballpark for start-up and initial running to bed in the new cam and lifters.

     

    Breaking In a TD Engine

    After I get my dash back in my '52 will be pretty much done. Any suggestions out there on how I should break the engine in? While I'm at it dad says the first oil change should be at 1,000 miles? Being sorta new to this, any advice will be greatly appreciated.

    First and foremost, re-torque the head nuts and re-adjust the valves the first time the engine comes up to temperature.

    Second, for the first hundred miles or so in particular, gently get on and off the gas as you are driving, rather than maintaining a steady throttle. This will help immeasurably in seating the rings quickly.

    Third, for the first five hundred miles, drive the car gently. Do not lug the engine at low revs in high gears, do not make it rev higher than it will easily reach at light to medium throttle openings. Don't even think about full throttle acceleration!

    Fourth, don't drive for long periods at a steady rpm. Vary your road speed so the engine speed varies.

    At 500 miles, re-torque the head and re-adjust the valves (yes, again!) while the engine is warm. Also, change the oil and filter.

    For the next 500 miles, drive more spiritedly but still avoid really hard acceleration or lugging in high gears.

    After 1,000 miles or so, drive and enjoy as a sports car is meant to be driven, but remember to change the oil every 3,000 miles, or at very least once a year. And always use a quality oil, preferably 20-50 wt.

     

    Why do Valves like Marvel Mystery Oil so much?

    I'm in the process of breaking-in a partially rebuilt XPAG engine. It has new pistons and rings, new stellite valves, hardened valve seats, (in fact every moving part on the head was replaced or refurbished). I'm up to 700 miles on the break-in. I've changed the oil several times along the way. If I don't add some Marvel Mystery Oil to the crank case, the valves sound angry and one of the exhaust ones will stick. With the MMO, the valves sound happy and no sticking. The valve guides are cast iron (not bronze) and the head was rebuilt by a reputable professional, so it's unlikely the clearances are out of spec (but I suppose anything is possible).

    In any case, why does the MMO help so much? Is it possible that the new valve stem seals are sealing too well and starving the stems for oil? I guess I'm assuming the MMO penetrates better than the regular oil, and can get past the seals. (BTW: I've met many 'T series owners who absolutely swear by MMO.)

     

    Motor: Filter-air/oil

     

    K&N filter for TD

    Where can I find the pancake filter element to fit my air cleaners for my 2 SU's 1 1/4"?

    I would like K&N filters. Any suggestions.

    I am curious how your air cleaners are mounted on your TD. I bought a set of K&N's and found that the radiator stay is in the way.

    I researched this some time ago and could not find K&N to fit my TD. The oil will get dark just by periodic use and should be changed at least every 3000 miles or sooner on a TD. I use ths Stellings/Hellings units and they look great and were a period accessory. To keep your car looking "right" the S/H should do just fine.

    At one time I was using TF-type dry filters on my MkII with the 1.5" carbs. They were just window screen. I found that the paper element from the air filter that fits 7hp Kohler tractor/lawn equipment/stationary engines could be wrapped around the window screen and do a credible job of filtering out dirt. Cheap, easy. I went to an OEM filter when I could find one. See some approx year old issues of TSO for my tech tip and some better ideas that followed. BTW, my guess on the black color of the oil is blowby, not air through the filters turning it dark. Does your rocker cover vent get its air through the filter? I would like to figure out how to install a paper element in the TD's oil-bath cannister without damaging the cannister.

     

    Oil Filters for XPAG - XPEG Engines

    I ordered the Moss oil filter adapter for my TF. I asked for the complete package but did not receive an oil filter. Does anyone know what determines an acceptable brand, #, etc., for an oil filter?

    I checked several oil filters that we around the house and found that both the Fram and Motorcraft filters that I had would thread on and the sealing gaskets would be in the correct position.

    I have an adapter on my TD Mark II. It uses a PF-21 AC filter. I use an AC because the original oil bath air filter is also an AC. Also the PF-21 fits on my pickup so both use the same pieces.

    Spin on type Moss filter part #235-880 Uses Fram PH3600, AC PF-56, Motorcraft FL-400A, Napa 1516, Purolator L20089 - L20195, Wix 51516, Baldwin B-243

     

    TF oil filter

    Oh great sages of the list, could someone point me to the # of a good oil filter for my 1954 TF with the 1250 engine? I picked one up at NAPA last year. I usually keep the box as a reminder but i moved and it didn't make the trip. It wasn't the cloth filter but one that was in a metal sleeve. No, I don't have the spin-on adapter. I'm on the digest so if you would reply directly I would appreciate it.

    I don't remember the filter you need, having changed mine to a spin-off type, but I got the filter elements for the old filter cannister at NAPA. They stock it. It fits the XPAG engine as used in later TDs and TF1250, and many other British engines. Box may say MG 1 1/4 liter engine and have Morris applications.

    The filter you want is a Hastings P172, AC AC32, Fram CH814PL or the equivalent in any other brand. These filters are also used in the MGA and the early MGBs through around 67. The filters come with 2 or 3 gaskets. You want to use the gasket that measures closest to 0.088" thick. Make sure that the old gasket is completely out of the grove (a good light, mirror and dental picks are helpful) and that the new gasket is well seated in the grove before putting things back together.

    Just ask the NAPA guys. It was a NAPA 1036 a few years ago, but check: NAPA 1300

     

    Spin on oil filter conversion

    I have a '52 TD that I would like to convert to a spin on oil filter. I believe that the kit that Moss sells is for later cars than mine. Anyone know where I might get such a kit or plans on how to convert?

    Sure, Phil Marino (in California) makes and sells a very nice spin on adapter for the TC and early TD and one for TD/TF. It's machined out of a solid block of aluminum and should outlive the rest of the car. Around $60 as I recall. Phil's address can be found in any recent TSO.

    Phil Marino, Bob Grunau, or Abingdon Spares sells a spin-on housing for the TC, adaptable to the TD. The TD mounting brackets are wider than the TC. Some of these filter housings have a groove cut in them, to fit in the lower groove of the mounting bracket. You have to perform some minor bending of the oil pipes to fit the pipes to the new filter housing. If you don't, the spin-on filter rubs against the lower bracket, possibly puncturing it.

    I am now making a new batch of spin-on oil filter adapters for the TC and early TD which are slightly longer and will not interfere with the spin-on filter as the bracket will be entirely on the adapter. Appearance is stock, if painted. The adapter is solid machined aluminum with steel threaded button inserts where a thread enters so any removal of banjo bolts and/or filter is through steel threaded inserts which are permanently Loctited into the aluminum housing. I can provide references of satisfied owners if requested. Cost is $65.00 US$, including packing and postal cost in North America.

    Moss Catalogue MGT-26, that arrived here yesterday, shows the oil cooler kit for early cars on p.49. I could not find mention of the filter conversion kit for early or late cars, though I bought one from Moss for my "late" engine a year ago. I'm wondering if the oil cooler kit might accept a filter. Perhaps a call to Moss would turn up the answer to this question, or an orphan adapter that's still on the shelf though not listed in catalogue.

     

    Why do two seals come with the filter?

    All the filters I've purchased have a thin seal and a fat seal. I've always used the fat one and have thrown the thin one away. Am I missing something here?

    Oh yeah, this is the Tecalment, (sp?) filter with replaceable element I'm talking about here.

    If your talking about the "integral canister" filter that's part of the oil pump, here is what I wrote some time ago in an old post:

    " The narrow gasket is the correct one. For many years I used the thick gasket on top of the narrow one (I didn't even know the narrow one was there.). Then one day I had a major oil spill on the garage floor, like the Exon Valdez. The list clued me in on the narrow gasket and the almost hidden groove it goes in. The old narrow gasket was as hard as a rock and bonded to the groove so rigidly, I had to chisel it out! Now I always put a new "narrow" gasket in when changing the filter. Now getting that gasket into the groove is a royal pain and it's hard to see if it's properly seated. I also try to guide the canister on straight and hold it so it doesn't turn against the gasket. I turn the bolt not the canister. "

    This groove really is well hidden, and only the thin seal will fit in it. I bought the spin-on filter adapters, but I can't get the old "filter bolt to pump adapter (as Moss calls it)" loose. Next time the engine is out, that part is going to meet Mr. acetylene wrench!

    Anyone still using the "integral canister" filter should double check for leaks after changing the filter element. Rev the engine briefly first, to get the pressure up. If the seal is not seated properly, you will loose oil fast! DO NOT HIT THE ROAD WITHOUT FIRST CHECKING FOR A LEAK!

    this is ABSOLUTELY correct. I learned the hard way myself with an Exon Valdez imitation, only mine was on the road. When I finally realized I had a problem it was on hitting the gas on the up grade side on the Tacoma Narrows bridge and having the ominous rod clatter emanate from the engine. By the time we got the TD towed off the bridge, I had traffic backed up some 10 miles. I went back to the situation I had before restoring my car, put the thin gasket in and got it seated correctly and then leave it there as long as it doesn't leak. Prior to restoring the car, I had some 60,000 miles on the original gasket with no leaks. It too, was hard as a rock, but still sealing perfectly well.

    Several gaskets are supplied with the filter because the filter fits many different applications. We need a gasket for the MGs that will sit snuggly in the oil pump groove. So you need to be more precise in your gasket description. "Narrow" and "thick" is not good enough. The Fram 814 filter comes with three gaskets, only one is correct. The groove in the oil pump measures 0.090" in width, using Fram gaskets, they are 0.068" wide, 0.088" wide or 0.118" wide, the 0.088" wide gasket is the correct one. Yes the old gasket can be hard as a rock and difficult to remove but that is what is needed every few years. I agree, you don't need to replace the gasket each filter change. Using a gasket that is not seated in the groove, or two gaskets, or the too narrow 0/068", or the too thick 0.0118" will almost always give a major oil leak at the worst moment. Do it right the first time and seat the proper 0/088" gasket in the groove and it will seal for years. Or buy an adapter to accept a modern spin-on filter. Bob Grunau makse this spin-on adapter for the late TD/TF oil pumps. Cost is $35.00 US$ plus $5.00 US$ mailing cost, for a total of $40.00 US$. Now the oil pump gasket is not disturbed when you change the filter. Filters are also cheap and readily available. The "filter bolt to pump" adapter can be difficult to remove. I use a piece of good 3/8" steel rod that passes through the hole in the adapter and monkey or pipe wrench that bears on both ends of the 3/8" rod and it just unscrews. The new filter adapter then simply screws into the oil pump using a 1" hex socket. I also make an aluminum spin-on oil filter adapter for the TC/early TD. This replaces the separate oil filter cannister and uses original brackets, oiil lines, banjo bolts and is cross drilled to give correct oil flow through the spin-on. Cost is $70.00 US$ plus $5.00 US$ mail for a total of $80.00 US$.

    That filter is used on several engines. Look on the side of the carton to see if there is a list of applications. It is likely that one of them needs the other gasket.

     

    What's in the Canister in the Oil Pan?

    Is there some sort of filter in that canister? Yes, a fine mesh screen.

    Does it need to be cleaned or replaced? Yes, it's likely to be FILLED with every bit of gunk, gasket material and sealer, and other garbage that ever passed through the engine.

    I removed the nut on the bottom of the canister, but I'm having trouble getting the darn thing apart. Odd. I'm only familiar with the early pick-up on which the filter is held in the canister by a split pin, a washer and spring. Once those are removed, you can usually dig the filter out by grabbing and edge and pulling it straight out. Note that there is also a large fibre washer that sits between the filter and the canister. Friendly persuasion will usually get it out.

     

    TC Oil Coolers

    Ok, all you TC owners - a chance for you to share some knowledge...One of our customers wants us to fit an oil cooler to his Shorrock-blown but otherwise stock TC. Any suggestions for the best location for the oil radiator to get good air flow while avoiding vulnerability to "sleeping policemen"?

    I'm just in the process of installing one (on the TD block that will go in the TC). The idea is from Phil Marino who has had his for many months and gets about 5 degree lower water temp and +5 psi oil pressure. Use the MGB oil radiator. Phil can supply mounting brackets that require no frame modifications - the fit to the front shock mtg bolts. At the oil filter end, Phil has two aluminum fittings that take a standard Fram filter which he has produced for several years. For both the TC and the TD you use a Hayden #205 oil cooler adapter (w/thermostat) which has an inlet and outlet fitting mounted between the filter and Phil's unit. All the connections, hoses, etc., are avaiable from the Hoseman outlets. Carl Cederstrand has produced some detailed drawings of the whole setup with all part numbers required. The final product looks like a factory installation. I expect a wave of interest in this modification for both TC/TD/TF.

     

    Oil cooler for a MG TF

    I am rebuilding my TF XPAG engine with a 3/4 race cam from Moss Motors and live in the Sacramento Valley and am concerned about high ambient temperatures and possible cooling problems. I was going to add an oil cooler but was told that this would entail tapping a new hole in the engine for an oil return line. I am not sure if I want to do that but the engine is in pieces and it could be done easily. Does anyone on the list have experience with high ambient temperatures and an MG TF/TD? Would an oil cooler help, installation tips etc.?

    I had a high density core installed in the radiator of our MGA when I couldn't get to cool down as much as I wanted. It looked the same in the A and did it ever run cool. Hard run Dayton to Grand Rapids every year in Aug. Even sitting in traffic, no sweat, well not from the car anyway. I have not tried yet on any of out Ts yet, but most likely will do the same.Both my TD and my wifes' TF take the summer heat just fine here in Ohio with everything stock. I would try that before I would drill the block. Something to think about anyway.

     

    TD Oil Drain Plug removal

    Looking for assistance in removing the brass oil drain plug from my recently acquired 1953 TD. The car was stored for approximately 9 years but runs fine. Evidently the PO had experienced similar difficulty in removing the plug since there are signs of chiseled notches where previous have been made to remove it. Unfortunately, being brass, it is quite soft and vise grips simply gnaw away at the brass leaving me with quite a rounded plug at this time. Would the application of heat to the plug or the pan (which expands at the more rapid rate: brass or aluminum?) be of any value? Has anyone else encountered and conquered this problem?

    Whoa there! No sense applying heat to an oil pan full of oil. The oil would keep the pan cool while you're heating the plug, the plug would expand from the heat while the pan wouldn't, and it would just get tighter. You would have to get the oil out first, all of the oil. And I don't think sucking it out through the dipstick hole would get enough of it out, so you would probably be in for removing the pan first.

    Now tell me it's some really strange thread and you can't get a tap for it. For the purpose of cleaning out an existing thread, you can sort of make your own tap. You need a steel part with the proper male thread. Hand file a notch in two places opposite each other in the leading corner of the male thread. The notches will act as cutting flutes on a tap. Use the modified part to chase the threads. If that modified part happens to be a new steel oil plug, you can probably go ahead and use the same part for the working oil pan plug.

    I had the same problem. I bought a new plug and used a vise grip to remove the old one. A new plug is only a "coupla-bucks".

    While he has a hole drilled, why not go at it with an ez-out or square screw extractor (as big as possible)? Just a thought...

    We have all been there. If your vise grips slips, get a bigger one and lock it on real tight. Put a wide pipe on the grip for more leverage and turn. Don't drill or use heat. The chissel is better than that method.You are turning it counterclockwise looking up at the plug?

    The TD plug is brass, and the sump is cast aluminum. Given that the bernz torch with the standard tip can put out a lot of heat, don't you think that playing the flame around the plug onto the sump would have the desired effect of getting expansion of the aluminum to change its grip on the brass threads. Wouldn't this take place before the oil could effectively redistribute the heat? The plug itself is large. I don't remember what the As used, but the B hole is about 1/2 inch, and I'm guessing that this is 15/16 or so. In '53, only some of the chassis pieces were UNC thread. Everything on the engine was either BSF, BSW or Nuffield's Mad Metric. Frank needs to get this plug out w/o harming the hole in the sump. MG must have expected a lot of pieces of engine to drain out with the oil, judging by the size of the plug. The oil change instructions were to remove the felt filter and to rinse it in paraffin, then reinstall the thing, replacing only at alternate oil changes. Can you think of a better way to reintroduce into the lubricant (single viscosity specified) most of the material that got filtered out the first time?

    No offense intended, he's usually right but DON"T DO THIS! The oil pan on your TD's XPAG is aluminum and will turn to some sort of metalic ash before it gets red hot. I'm not a metalurgist but I'm fairly sure that brass will take way more heat than aluminum. On the other hand I believe aluminum will expand much faster than brass. Problem there is, aside from the oil in the pan Barney mentioned, you've got a great huge hunk of aluminum complete with cooling fins that will suck the heat away faster than you can apply it.

    I'd go with a heat and cool cycle a couple times with propane on the nut without draining the oil and then have at it with a GBF pipe wrench (It's ruined already right?) It's possible that someone (a DPO?) has used some type of sealant on the threads or has over tightened on a copper washer in a futile attempt to keep the oil in the sump. Judicious use of heat will help break the bond in either case.

    How about trying some dry ice on the brass plug? Anybody ever used dry ice to loosen stuck parts?

    Easier and faster in effect than ice would be a can of Freezit or any other brand of componennt freeze. It's a spray used in electronics work to isolate heat sensitive problem components. It should be available at most electronics supply stores. (This stuff is great at getting bubblegum out of carpets too)

     

    TD drain tap on block

    To open the drain tap on the block do you turn the tap counterclockwise? I don't want to twist it off.

    Turn the tap counterclockwise to open the drain. I use a slightly open or relaxed pair of pliers to do the job.

    It should be a small faucet type of drain in which case to rotate the arm CCW to be in line with the spigot

     

    Oil feed pipe

    I've noticed the oil feed pipe on my TD is affixed to the head and block incorrectly. If I remove the pipe and reverse it will I need to prime the pump or have problems with the pressure guage as a result?

    The banjo union should be at the block and the flex union should be at the head....mine is installed in reverse.

    The early TDs had a banjo bolt at the upper or head end with a flex line adapter built as a part of it. The banjos themselves at each end of the line were identical and the lower bolt was called a "round head" I think. Later TDs had a different line. The upper banjo was the same as the early version but the lower banjo had the flex line adapter built in to it. Both the banjo bolts were slightly different than the early lower "round head" type. I have seen the later type line installed with the flex line adapter at the head end but I think that's incorrect. The "improved" line is supposed to be installed with the built in flex line adapter at the block. I don't know why the "improvement" was made.

    If you have to remove the line between the head and block, you dont have to prime the oil pump. Whatever air is in the line will push through to the rocker shaft and not be a problem. The oil pressure gauge seems to take care of itself and doesn't need to be bled.

    You can reverse the pipe without any difficulties. The pump is well below this pipe, so will not lose its prime, and the gauge has some sort of air-release device so that it will purge itself of air that gets into the system.

    Early TDs had the flex line affixed to the top, at the head. There was a problem with the oil pressure indicating, sometimes 20 PSI lower on the guage. When it was actually OK. This was due to the oil having to climb the skinny copper oil line first. The factory fixed this problem by attaching the flex oil guage line at the bottom. This solved the problem on later cars. Yours was probably reversed by the prior owner to correct this.

    Thanks. The DPO may actually done something right this time. My pressure reads 40-50lbs. and then decreases slightly as the engine warms up. Should I be concerned?

    40 to 45 PSI is normal running warm oil pressure.

     

    TD oil line

    Should the oil gallery pipe with the oil guage flex hose have the "dual" branches fit to the top of the block or to the bottomof the block on the TD? I show a schematic in the Service Parts catalogue that shows the dual fitting at the top not the bottom. Which is correct? It seems my memory recalls there was a switch at the factory from one way of fitting to the other. Does one fitting effect the oil pressure?

    The pipe was originally fitted with the flex line coming off at the head. Later TDs and TFs had the pipe reversed so the flex line comes off at the bottom. There are many who say you can see a 10lbs. difference in oil pressure by switching the pipe's position - but I've never seen it.

     

    Motor: starting

     

    TD won't start

    Just took a drive and stopped the car. I went to restart the car and it would not start. When the ignition key is turned I get juice at the guages but the starter won't start when I pull the start knob. Could the starter cable need adjusting? Help.

    I'm not sure about the TD but check to see if you have push on connections on the starter maybe one is loose. Are you sure your battery is good. I have had 2 fail without any sign that something was wrong. Came out of a store and the battery was dead.

    Yes, it could be that. You can test the switch by taking up the slack in the cable by pulling out the knob, then pushing in the center pin on the switch with a piece of wood. You can jump around the switch ((CAREFULLY)) with a pair of pliars, to see if it's the starter at fault. Assume you have checked for good connections at the battery, at the switch and at the starter. Then, of course, there's the starting handle, conveniently placed behind the seatback.

    Steve, I assume you have spun the starter by hand with a wrench on the fron end to be sure it is free? You may have to remove the small cap it its still in place.

     

    Starting with the hand crank

    When starting with the "handle" what is the propoer proceedure? I don't want to have the handle kick back at me.

    This is one of those LBC procedures that CAN get you hurt. It's easy to do if you take one simple precaution. Do NOT wrap your thumb around the starter handle. Grip the handle firmly with your right hand, squeezing the handle between your fingers and the pad of your thumb. Your thumb should be in kind of a hitch-hiking position pointing down the shaft of the handle towards the rad. This is very important because if the car was to misfire and your thumb was wrapped around the handle it would almost certainly dislocate your thumb or perhaps break it. I haven't done it myself but I saw a highschool friend loose the use of his right hand for weeks while starting his MGA. NOT a pretty picture.

    Just like when using the starter, make sure the hand brake is set, and the car is in neutral. Engage the starting handle and, with the ignition OFF turn the handle to get used to the feel so you know when you're on a compression stroke (it'll only engage the dogs on the crankshaft if you turn it the right way). It gets harder to turn as you approach TDC then, as you pass TDC and are on the exhaust stroke it'll spin on its own. When your sure you've got that mastered it's time to fire her up.

    Now the fun part. Turn on the ignition and wait till the float bowls fill. Pull out the choke to it's normal starting position. If you've got a slow running adjustment turn that out too (do TD's have those?) Grab the handle, (safely!) and turn it slowly till you feel compression start to build then spin the handle as fast as you can for about 1/2 turn. When the motor goes over TDC it'll either start or spin away from the cogs on the handle. If it doesn't catch, repeat. It's really easy once you get the hang of it and it always entertains onlookers. Just remember to turn the ignition on. It's very embarrassing to crank and crank and not get even a pop only to discover that you didn't have the ignition on. Been there, done that, got the right arm to prove it.

     

    Starting a T-series with the crank.

    Part of the trick is to get the dog nut on the end of the crankshaft at the correct position so that you hit compression when your arm is at its strongest position. A shim is used under the nut to achieve this.

    Set the slow running control to a higher than notmal idle. You also need the original choke cable that stays out when you given it a twist. Give it a bit of choke.

    Check that you're in neutral (I have forgetten this step at least once!)and that the handbrake is on.

    Give a couple of turns on the crank, then turn on the ignition and give it a couple of fast cranks. It usually starts.

    There are a few important items that **** inadvertently omitted. First and foremost. DO NOT PUT THE WEB OF YOUR HAND OVER THE CRANK! You thumb should (must) be on the same side of the handle as your fingers. This is to avoid the possibility of the crank breaking your hand. Remember that the TD does not have a slow-running control. Pulling the choke out accomplishes this. Insert the crank into the nut on the end of the crank and slowly rotate the crank (clockwise) until the engine is just about to begin a compression stroke as you about to pull the crank upward from its lowest position. Remember that you can rotate the crank backwards in the dog (nut) to change the location by half a turn. The ONLY fast action that you make with the crank is to pull it up from the six o'clock position toward 12 o'clock. Do not attempt to go beyond the 12 o'clock position. Never push down on the crank. The dog on the nut is designed to push the crank pin out of the nut once the engine starts. Make certain that your crank is an easy fit into the dog with no excessive drag from the bumper, bar, shell or radiator support.

     

    TD starting handle crank nut loose...

    I went to set timeing on the TD today but the starting handle would turn the crank nut but it would not turn the pulley that has the timeing mark on it. Do the nut just need to be tigthened and if so what size wrench and do I have to brace the pulley so it doesn't turn. Please let me know if I have a problem or do I just need to tighen the nut.

    Turning the starting handle clockwise will tighten the nut/dog if it is loose. The threaded part of the dog is only about 1/2 inch long, so it won't take many turns of the crank to tighten it. 1 1/8 wrench will fit the nut. WIth the sparkplugs in, you should have enough resistance to be able to tighten the nut sufficiently. I am curious that the nut has loosened, though, and hope that it is not stripped.

     

    Motor: running / problem solving

     

    TD idle speed

    My TD has rebuilt carbs that I can not set to allow the car to idle below 1000 RPMs. The front carb has a weeping of gas from the bottom cork gland. Could that be the culprit? What to do?

    Obviously the carbs have not been rebuilt properly, or they would not be leaking. When installing new cork seals it is useful to soak them in light oil say 3 in 1, for a couple of days, prior to installation. This will provide a swollen and a lubricated surface for the jet to slide on and give a good leak proof seal. It is vital to ensure the brass butterfly is correctly installed in it's shaft, with the chamfered edges tightly fitting the interior bore of the carb's body when in the fully closed position. This is best achieved by lightly setting the retaining screws first, and then operating the shaft by hand while watching light shining through the choke tube. When the throttle plates have settled into their 'natural position' and the least amount of light is visible, then tighten the screws, and set them. It is also vital that the cross shafts are correctly fitting the carb's body. Loose shafts will ruin any attempt for a reliable idle; tight shafts in a rebushed body will expand with heat and can cause the throttle to stick in the wide open position, resulting in embarrassing situations not conducive to longevity. Assuming that all these points are in order, it is now vital that the fuel level in the float chamber is correct, and that there is no leakage of fuel past the inlet valve. (I recommend the fitting of the Gross type of fuel inlet valves.). Any maintenance manual will give you the relative procedures for this. I need not reiterate here this readily available information.

    After all these items have been attended to, arm yourself with a carb synchroniser such as is sold by Moss. The oldies used to check for correct balance between the two carbs by listening, via a short piece of rubber tubing to the hiss, made when the engine was running, of the air passing through the carbs' throat. Not very accurate, especially for the hearing impaired person. The synchroniser will enable you to set both carbs. independently of each other to the same rate of inhallation. Again, clear instructions are included with the machine. Follow the procedures laid down for mixture adjustment, and make sure the dash pots are topped up with an oil to SAE 20 spec. It is VITAL that the needle bearing piston be free to move over it's whole travel, and that the needle is corrctly centered in the jet's orifice.

    All throttle linkages must be free and lubricated in order that the butterflies can close properly. The return springs should be in good order, and the shaft interconnectors tightened cautiously to prevent an undue differential twisting of one shaft in relation to the other from spoiling the idle. I also recommend the fitting of a heat shield between the carbs and the manifold. This will help prevent overheating of the float chambers (which contributes to give an erratic idle) and also vapourisation of the petrol, so common a fault when making short duration stops on very hot days.

    The S.U. Carburettor rebuilding video available from Moss Motors gives a very clear explanation of how to do these jobs correctly. I am able to supply you with a heat shield should you so desire.

     

    Mixture problem

    Spun a bearing on my '52, and had to re-build the bottom half of the engine. Now that I've got her back together, I can't get the mixture right.

    At the best idle when warm, (set the mixture by the book. Jet adjusting nuts six flats out, etc, etc,) she has no power throughout the rev range, and runs hot, which means, (to me) that she's running way lean. However, any attempts to enrich the mixture pretty much makes her undrivable.

    Here's what I've done in trying to correct the problem, and some relevent specs.

    -Valves set to .019 -Re-built distributor with a point gap set to .014 -New timing chain -Re-built SU carbs -Trottle linkage re-bushed. -Static timed the ignition

    Here's some caveats:

    -Don't know which cam is on her, so the valve setting could be .012. I'm going to split the difference in a few days and set it to .015 to see if there's any improvement.

    -After having the distibutor re-built, timing chain replaced lined up all the marks properly on the gears w/correct chain config, (to cut to the chase, if the MG shop manual is right, the ignition timing is dead-on). The dwell is still off by -10degrees.

    So that's it. Any help greatly appreciated.

    First of all check the points gap 14 thou is OK for the Lucas 23D distributer in an MGA or MGB but not for an XPAG engine which used an older type of Lucas distributer 12 thou is the correct gap . Don't even bother to try and relate the dwell angle to a book figure as you are unlikely to find any source for the correct figure. Instead if you suspect distributer trouble just check the gap on all 4 lobes of the distributer cam and average them to 12 thou. Set the ignition timing to 5 deg btdc static and advance it until pinking is just

    detected on unleaded fuel when the throttle is fully open in top gear at 1500 RPM then retard it by about 3 degrees. The engine will tend to run hot if the timing is too retarded.

    Two different cams with different designs of quienting ramps hence vastly different valve clearances were used in XPAG engines I know of no way to tell them apart however if the tappets are set to 19 thou the only problem this is likely to cause is excess noise and should not affect the running, however valve clearance which are to tight will reduce power particularly at low revs. The only

    guide I can give is if your car is the latter TD2 with H4 carbs and long reach sparlk plugs (ie. Champion N5) -- it MAY use the cam for the later (tighter)

    valve clearance most replacement cams are of this type. As you are aware the valve timing is very difficult to set in this type of engine - the timing marks are unconventional - the timing marks line up with marked links on the chain not with each other also the the chain can be put on two different ways -- this is a common cause of problems when rebuilding these engine always check the valve timing using a protractor mounted on the crankshaft.

    Carbs -- float level may be wrong ; set this by inverting the float chamber lid and putting a drill of the specified size under the little lever -- if your car has spring cushioned float valve don't push the lever down its own weight is enough. Carb needles the correct needle for 1.5 inch H4 SU carbs is (I think draging back a memory from 1973) SU ref GJ if you have the earlier smaller SUs I don't know the needle ref. Setting the carbs. (1) Check for vacumm leaks -- not only at the gaskets but also at the core plugs

    at each end of the manifold cross passage. (2) Check metering the needles are sitting at the correct height in the pistons and not sitting proud of the piston base. (3) When synching the carbs use a length of 5/8 heter hose held just clear of the carb mouth --- finding the right place may require some practice but if you get it wrong you will never get the carbs right. (4) The only tool that is any use for setting the mixture on an XPAG is a Gunson ColourTune even then you will probably find you need to make the mixture about 1/2 of a turn richer than the colourtune setting --- don't worry about this it is to do with the inlet port design on these engines. (5) Check the linkage between the two carb spindles is clamping properly -- they often slip after rebuilds.

    Once you have the engine settled in you may find it runs better with colder (harder) spark plugs than the Chaampion recommended particularly if the compression has been raised -- most heads T type have been skimmed. My TF had long reach plugs and I found Champion N5 too hot and used N3 or N2

    the timing marks line up with marked links on the chain not with each other also the the chain can be put on two different ways --

    How is this? I thought if the two marked links on the chain were placed on the two timing marks on the sprockets then everything was right. If there is a second way, will the motor run if the chain is put on the second way?

    You can line the marks up and have the "side" of the chain that should be on the tension side on the slack side -- number of links between the marks isn't the same in both directions. XPAG like most pushrod engines will tolerate very large errors in valve timing but it in this case it would be very "noticably not right" and may back fire through the carbs.

    The quick check is to check the valve timing is symetrical ---- ie if the inlet valve reaches full lift at angle X after TDC on the inlet stroke, then exhaust valve should be at full lift at the same angle X before TDC on the exhaust stroke. This simple check works for most engines that don't have really exotic cam profiles.

     

    Slow oil pressure at start

    To get back to what is important, the MG, some years ago I converted my TD to a screw on oil filter and used the attachments from an early Leyland MINI. I now read in the January edition of the Octagon Car Club Bulletin that I may have a problem.

    The problem is that on start up from cold my TD has a very noisey top end and it takes about 5 minutes for the oil to reach the valve gear and to quieten down the top end rattle. The oil pressure on start up is an almost instantaneous 50psi and not dropping below 40 on idle when hot. The oil feed is going into the filter in the correct direction and hopefully coming out in the right direction, so are there any suggestions as to what the solution/ problem might be?. I am also fitting an oil cooler to the TD . Has anyone out there done this and if so what are the pitfalls?.

    First we need to know what year is your TD and does it have the separate oil filter or the integral oil filter/pump arrangement for the late TD/TF?

    The early TD has the separate oil filter and usually with a modern spin-on filter the oil flow needs to be from the outside to inside of the filter. The most recent March Octagon issue has further discussion on filter oil flow, ref page 39 and 43. I have never required a "restrictor" in the top banjo bolt as a new rocker shaft and good rocker bushes seem to give sufficient restriction to flow. Obviously some flow is required to lubricate the valve tips and pushrod ends as well as the rocker bushes. I am not familiar with the early Leyland Mini oil filter arrangement so can't comment on your specific installation. You do need to know which direction the oil flows through the filter adapter and ensure the filter is correct for that flow direction. Also, flap valves in the filter allowing oil to flow in only one direction must be considered.

    Oil reaching the top of the valve gear should be almost instantaneous with engine oil pressure, certainly not take 5 minutes. I would check the oil feed pipe and banjo bolts feeding the head and ensure a good flow of oil is being passed through the pipe and banjo bolts. The rocker gear is where the restriction to flow should occur, not a crimped pipe or severely restricted banjo bolt. Perhaps some DPO has fitted the rocker shaft upside down and blocked the oil feed hole? Or used packing shims under the pedestals with no feed hole? 50 psi running oil pressure is fine, as is 40 psi idle. The fact the pressure comes up " instantaneously" leads one to believe the oil pressure gauge take-off is on the block ( not the head as shown in the manual ) and your problem is down stream from the take-off.

     

    High oil presure

    The XPAG engine in the TB has about 100# oil pressure, which is a LITTLE high. Any suggestions on what might cause this? Oil is 20w/50.

    Before you go nutty looking deeper, If your oil filter is the sock covered variety and if it does not have the cylindrical screen at the top, where it prevents the sock from being sucked into the oil outlet, the sock will get pulled into the outlet and jam it up, raising oil pressure significantly at the gauge. I had that problem with my TC and had 85+ # op until I fixed that little item. Now, I am not at all sure your oil filter on the TB is anything like the TC, but I thought this might save you a lot of trouble.

    I am unfamiliar with the pump on your engine. Here is some info on the TD pump that might help. The pump on the TD's XPAG engine has a pressure relief spring, ball and seat arrangment in the bottom of the pump. From under the car, you look up and see a brass nut at the bottom of the pump facing the ground. Undo the nut and a 1/4 cup of oil, the spring, the ball and perhaps the seat for the ball will come out. In the TD manual, the spring is described as "17 gauge or .056 inch, ..500 inch ovarll diameter, 1.476 free length. Total number of coils is 13.5, giving a load of 7 lb. when compressed to 1.063 inch."

    Good point on the blocked filter outlet, this is not unusual. The filter problem can be solved by buying an adapter that replaces the original can with an aluminum adapter housing that accepts a modern spin-on filter. Much easier to change the filter and new filter units are cheap. The adapter replicates the top half of the original can and uses original mountings, oil lines and banjo bolts. You just screw the new spin-on filter onto the adapter from below. It fits TB, TC and early TD as well as early Y types. Almost forgot to mention, I manufacture and sell the adapter. Email me if interested. Price is $75.00 US$ including North American postage cost.

    Check oil pump relief valve spring in pump cover and install a shorter/weaker spring to reduce pressure. Also check no shims under relief valve spring in the brass cap.

     

    Motor: Misc.

     

    Morris and B.M.C. engine codes

    Those that are interested in this sort of thing should go to http://www.magnette.org/technic/codeseng.pdf and save the resulting pdf file.

     

    TD engine stabilizer

    What is the correct way to tighten the engine stabilizer on a TD? My engine moves and I need the collective wisdom to stabilize the engine. Do I "push" or Pull the engine to tighten it at the stabilizer. And how do I actually adjust the stabilizer?

    The stabilizer is a turnbuckle with both a left and a right hand thread on the inner portion. Undo the outer nut so the stabilizer is free to slide in and out of the hole on the vertical bracket when the engine is pushed sideways. Allow the engine to rest on it's bearers in it's 'natural' position. Then undo the two locknuts adjacent to the turnbuckle's long centre nut. Holding the outer threaded rod with a mole wrench, use a spanner to turn the long nut one way or the other so that the stabliizer either lengthens or shortens, until the loose end's inner rubber pad touches the vertical bracket, with out moving the motor from it's 'natural' position. Tighten the two lock nuts, and finally tighten the outer nut so that the vertical bracket is gripped firmly between the two rubber pads. Then pass a split pin through the castellated nut and the threaded rod, or if you are using a self gripping nut, tighten it as above.

    The idea is to allow the engine to rest on it's bearers in a vertical position and to prevent it from moving from side to side under load while at the same time damping vibrations as much as possible.

    The shop manual says the engine should neither be pulled or pushed. In other words the stabilizer should not move the engine from it's normal resting position. The engine and the radiator should line up so that the big radiator hose does not have to bend. The stabilizer link length is adjustable and should be set so that it neither pushes or pulls on the engine. When everything is set right, you can still rock the engine a bit with your hand on the valve cover, but it should have a nice firm feel. My engine was loose as a goose untill I put new rubber bits on the link ends. (The engine also needed new motor mounts, but thats another matter.)

    According to the manual (natch) loosen the outer nut on the stabilizer and turn the central turnbuckle until the engine is free to move sideways in both directions. Shake the engine real good and let it settle. Expand the stabilizer with the turnbuckle until it is firmly bedded against the brackets at each end, but don't overdo it (move the engine). Tighten the outer nut. The stabilizer is a stabilizer, but is not meant to correct for other mounting problems (i.e., shouldn't have tension on it when at rest).

     

    XPAG sitting not straight

    I'd like to bet you have one or two problems, either or both are easy to repair and quite common especially with an XPAG that has never received much proper attention. First, completely disconnect the stabilizer link assembly from the engine. This is the rod like assembly that is fastened to the frame bracket on the right front side from the water pump. If the engine has a tendency to right itself, it was a misadjusted stabilizer. Second, check the front motor mount below the cradle or bearer plate. It'll likely be squeezed out of its normal box like shape and bulge especially at the front and rear sides. This is due to the deterioration of the rubber and needs to be replaced. The bulged out rubber may have taken a "set" to lean to one side if it was in that misadjusted condition for a long time. Rocking the engine from side to side will also be very easy with a bad motor mount like it's sitting on a marshmellow. The above suggestions are made with the assumption that the frame, the link assembly and the engine stabilizer or engine control bracket are not bent. Last but not least, the rear engine mounts back at the transmission should also be carefully checked while you doing the whole job. Replace the three rubber parts as well as checking the mounting point on the bottom of the transmission and the bracket that holds the two thick rubber blocks. The rubber parts will probably be deteriorated like the front mount and the transmission mounting point frequently is found to be cracked. Your problem is not new, serious nor unprecedented.

    Thanks for all of the help and information many of you have sent me on this topic so far. I have done some further investigation of my problem with the way the engine is sitting in the car. Here is what I have done and found out this past weekend.

    1. I disconnected the engine stabilizer link and the engine didn't move one way or the other.

    2. The front motor mount looks alright but the rubber might be soft, the engine moves very easily from side to side.

    3.The bracket the engine stabilizer link attaches to that bolts to the frame has a problem. This plate doesn't look original (looks new). The rear bolt that attaches it to the frame was missing. I couldn't move the bracket around to line up with the bolt hole because it hit the bolt that attaches the cradle (piece that the front mount bolts too) to the bearer plate (on front of engine). How much clearance should be between the bracket and the bolt? This make me believe the engine is a little far forward. There was about 1/2" gap between the frame cross member and this bracket. The DPO had used washers to shim up the gap. Is the front bolt supposed to be through the rear inside shock mounting bolt.

    4. The stabilizer link is on an angle (front to back). Where it mounts to the engine is forward of the bracket.

    5. I have about 1 1/4" gap between the rear cover on the head and the engine bulkhead.

    6. Is the center of the crankshaft pulley, center of the water pump pulley and the center of the thermostat housing opening on the same center line? My engine is sitting with the center of the thermostat housing to the right (looking at it from the front would be to the left). I can easily tilt the engine so that all three of these items are on the same centerline (which I believe is correct).

    7. My car is an early TD which has Girling front shocks. Looking at some catalogs I see that the Girling shock has a thicker base then the later Armstrong shocks. My engine stabilizer bracket is bolted to the frame using the rear inside shock mounting bolt (bracket mounting hole on top of the shock). If the Girling shocks are thicker then this has to make a difference to the bracket in the way the bracket sits Can anyone tell me if the bracket is mounted correctly or do I need a different bracket with the Girling shocks?

    1. That's good, as far as it goes. The stabiliser link is not supposed to force the engine into position, but to hold it in the right position once that has been established by means of the front and rear mounts.

    2. If the sides of the mount are straight, then it's probably OK. If they are bulged, then the mount is due for replacement. If the front mount is bad, the rear mounts will be worse. ( And harder to replace)

    3. We're getting into nomenclature problems here, I fear---I measured the front edge of the 1/8 steel front plate on the engine (between block and timing cover) and the rear edge of the stabilser bracket and found the space to be about 7/8". The stabiliser bracket has two bolts into the chassis, and one bolt that goes vertically into a little tab that is welded to the front crossmember. The bolt on the tab is about 7/8" OC back from the crossmember. I am wondering if that tab might be missing on your car and if the DPO bolted it horizontally, and too far forward, to the Xmember.

    4. On my car the turnbuckle runs straight across. It's perpindicular to the connection on the engine and to the bracket. > 5. That my be revealing the problem. On the right hand side, I measured about 7/8" from the head to the upper edge of the footwell.

    6. Straight in line and straight up is the way it's supposed to be.

    7. I do not believe that there were two brackets. In the Service Parts List, there is only one bracket listed for the stabiliser.

    Observation that the wear of the fittings inside the "protected" box was worse than that of the exposed fittings. These were all loaded with accumulated grease and oil, and sand, and dirt, and a couple of small rocks plus a number of unidentifiable objects. Now that you have asked, though, I think I will go to a motorcycle shop and see what it is that the cyclists use on their chains. Seems to me that the chains operate in a similar environment.

     

    Fan blades

    I understand there are Datsun or Mitsubishi plastic fan blades that are interchangable with the MG T-type blade. Does anyone know the model and/or part number? These are 6 bladed fans and reportedly can reduce operating temp by 10 deg - much needed here in CA. The dimension of the TC blade is 12 5/8 OD, four mounting holes 3/16 D on 1 3/4 bolt circle. I have looked in a couple of junk yards but saw only blades with a large center hole for an electric motor.

     

    TD Tach Adjustment

    I've just gotten my TD back from a considerable amount of engine work and, among other things, I purchased the gear and the cable that connects the back of theeen the generator to the back of the tach. The mechanic who helped rebuild the engine since heard the engine running and said that the tach must be incorrect in that the revs as shown on the tach were considerable higher than the probable actual RPMs of the engine.

    Is this possible? Is there an adjustment somewhere to bring the TAC readings in line with the actual revs of the engine?

    It's easy enough to test the accuracy of your tach. Connect an electronic tach and compare its readings to those of your TD's tach.

    It isn't unusual for a generator-driven tach to read high. As the generator pulley wears, the belt rides deeper in the worn pulley than it should, in effect reducing the operating diameter of the pulley. That wouldn't matter if the generator pulley and crankshaft pulley wore at the same rate, but they seldom do. The generator pulley usually wears faster than the crankshaft pulley, upsetting the original drive ratio. This makes the generator spin faster than normal relative to engine speed, and so the tach reads high.

    A replacement generator pulley is the solution, if one is available, or have the tach recalibrated to give a true reading with the worn pulley. Of course, a mis-calibrated or worn tach could also be the root of the problem.

     

    Oil in distributor cap

    What would cause oil inside the distributor cap on my TD after a hard 20 mile drive? I noticed a slight loss in power after the drive and founf a film of oil deposited in the cap and on the points.

    Worn bushings could contribute to the problem. Some oil will collect in the bottom of the distributor over time, as it can't get out, eventually it can cause problems. Drill a small hole in the bottom of the distributor, under the advance plate, and the oil can escape and dribble out.

     

    TD exhaust manifold/pipe gasket?

    Has anyone tried to use the MGA/MGB round steel gaskets that fit between the bottom of the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipe on a TD? I must have replaced the triangular gasket about 8-10 times over the years! Keeps blowing out in relatively short periods of time. Yes, both surfaces seem flat. I just thought that having a round gasket like that might help keep the gases contained and directed through the exhaust system.

    Even if the flange surfaces are perfectly flat you'll still have gasket failure if they don't align correctly with each other. That's difficult to accomplish when the exhaust manifold is clamped firmly to the engine and the lower end of the header pipe is clamped firmly to the chassis and the rest of the exhaust system. Have you tried loosening up the lower end of the header pipe to provide some give? Often that will let the flanges pull up tightly against each other.

    I'm not familiar with the MGA/B setup, but some older MG models use a round ring with the outer diameter machined into a shallow double cone which forces into similarly machined countersinks in the manifold and headfer pipe flanges. This works pretty well when new, but once the assembly rusts (and it WILL rust) it can be hard to get apart. Also, once the countersinks in the flanges become rust-pitted, it can be difficult to get a good seal. Ideally the ring should be machined from stainless steel to avoid some of these problems.

    I prefer a standard flange gasket, with the flanges bolted together before the rest of the exhaust system is secured. Actually what I really prefer is a Derrington-style tubular header that does away with the separate header pipe, but that comes with its own peculiar set of installation problems.

    I've had to replace the gasket in my 52 twice in the past three years. Each time it was caused by the brass nuts having come loose. Actually, that should read " by my failure to periodically snug up the brass nuts".

     

    Lower breather pipe bracket

    Getting close to reinstalling the TD's engine after a whole lot of work. Discovered that the odd shaped piece that I've had in my parts bin is the bracket for the lower end of the breather pipe. For the life of me I can not figure out where it would mount. Can anybody out there shed some light on this? Or, will it be obvious once I try to install it?

    From memory, the lower bracket mounts on the breather pipe very close to the bottom end of said breather pipe and bolts to the bell housing by means of the nearest suitable bell housing to block bolt.

    It mounts on the lower left side of the bell housing, and is held in place by bell housing bolt.

    I think it goes onto the bellhousing bolt at the widest point of the bellhousing, ie 9 o'clock.

     

    TC intake manifold

    I bought an aftermarket intake manifold for my TC, which lacked this piece when I purchased it. The new manifold has four 8-mm-diameter holes in the bottom at the center, directly below the port for the air cleaner. Seems odd....I can only guess they are drains for oil dripping out of the filter, but they provide a direct path for air to bypass the filter.

    Can someone with an original manifold tell me if it has these holes? If so, does anyone know what are they for? Are they to be just left open? If there's no additional part I'm missing, I thought I'd secure a piece of foam to the inside over the holes - it would at least keep the gravel out.

    BTW, this manifold, while ascetically very nice, is poorly machined and did not fit as purchased. I questioned Moss Motors about it and was told that all the manifolds are like that - it is the best replacement they can find. The service rep read from something (it wasn't in the catalog!) that stated several hours of hand fitting may be required. In my case, several days of fitting and an hour of maching would be closer. (The most minor of three problems was that neither of the carburetor-mounting ports was flat. It was, in fact, while refinishing these to get a reasonable seal to the carburetors that I realized the four holes were huge air leaks - why worry about flatness!)

    I can tell you that all the original TC air cleaner manifolds had the holes to which you refer. I'm afraid I have no clue as to why the factory put them there and agree it would seem that a small amount of unfiltered air can certainly enter there. However, unless you drive a lot on dirt roads, I doubt it would make a lot of difference to the life of your engine.

    I own two original ones that have these holes. No idea what they're for! I have two of these manifolds(original) and 4 carbs. I use them interchangeably with no fitting problems.

     

    TD exhaust

    how do you secure studs to the exhaust manifold?

    Not sure exactly what you are asking but a stock TD header is held in place in conjunction with the intake manifold. There are keepers, shaped like miniature rocker arms, which act as clamps. Each one does double duty in that it holds part of the exhaust and intake on either side of the stud. Nuts are used to secure them. There are 4.

    Generally they screw right in. They are 10mm x 1.5 threads. If the holes are enlarged, suggest Heli-coil repair. Hopefully, you have the header pipe to mate up with the manifold, so that the drilled & enlarged holes for tapping the heli-coils into are in the same plane as the holes in the header pipe.

    There are clamps (Moss 433-630) that go on the studs (328-760) and are tightened down by nuts (311-100). See page 6-7 of there new catalog, key numbers 93-95.

     

     

    Transmission / axle

     

    Transmission

     

    Gear oil

    I have a TD and use 80W90 gear oil in the transmission (gearbox). I have heard of the wonders of using synthetics in our LBC's. Can anyone give some real life experiences and suggestions which Redline gear oil I should use. I seem to remember the MTL stuff is what I need.

    I've been using Amsoil Synthetic Gear Lube (80W90) in the gearbox and differential of my '53 TD for about a year. I took it out for a run yesterday (about 40 degrees F and sunny in New Jersey, top down of course and sidecurtains stowed). The car's thermometer never ran above 75 degrees C. The transmission was smooth as silk, except of course when I missed a shift or

    beat the synchros.

    I'll take a shot at your questions, first 90w120 is a .multi-viscosity

    gear oil which is fine for all T type rear ends and transmissions. I use 90-140.

    I need hypoid gear oil for the rear end and transmission, I have seen this in auto parts stores as gear oil 90w120, but it does not

    state if it is for hypoid gears. Is this ok to use?

    Er... Being an old fart and an unabashed traditionalist, I have always been under the impression that where any gears are involved, specifically rear axles and gearboxes, the key word in any oil used in LBCs MUST BE HYPOID!!!

    I use Castrol 80W-90 HYPOID in both components in my own blown TD and so far, after 10,000 hard pushed miles, all appears well.

    The factory called for Castrol Hypoy SAE 90.

    We've been through the Redline thread several times before so I'll keep this short. I put Redline 85W140 (Ithink) in the TC's gearbox and it was the next best thing to a rebuild. I can't praise it highly enough.

    The tranny in my TC is tired, it was noisey and very difficult to shift when cold. Not long after I got it I drained the transmission and differential and replaced the oils with the appropriate lubes recommended by the manual. The transmission was just as noisey and just as difficult to shift but I

    then figured at least I'd done what I could to prevent further damage.

    While at GoF West last year I attended a tech session and the subject of synthetic oils came up. The group couldn't come to a consensus on motor oil but I heard nothing but glowing reports of Redline synthetic gear lube When I got home I replaced the 140W gear lube in the tranny with the

    recommended Redline gear lube (85-140 I think). It was (is) the next best thing to a rebuild-in-a-can. The transmission was smoother, cooler, quieter and easier to shift. All this for $12!

    Redline synthetics are specialy formulated for older (vintage) gearboxes and differentials and are available in a wide range of flavours. I have no affiliation with them at all but I just have to pass on my experience. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

    In the MG Y and TD I use Redline MT 90. It is 75W 90 weight

     

    What oil to use in my gearbox

    I purchased a qt of red line oil from Moss Motors 75w90ns.Now,in their latest cat.I see they now have sae 140 gear oil-"the only correct oil to use in your t series.What should I use.Thanks Jim

    The old manuals say sae 90. I've been using castrol hypoid 90, which means that I can use the same can for the reaend. It is also a non-synthetic oil, which,of course, didn't exist when the book was written!

    There has been much discussion on this. Do not use regular gear oil in the rear end. You need hypoid oil for the shearing action of the gear surfaces. Conversely do not use hypoid oil in the gear box. I use Redline products in the gear box and Castrol hypoid in the rear.

    I have read all the discussions about the distructive effect of the hypoid additives on the brass parts in the transmission. Can you buy regular 90 weight gear oil locally and where do they sell Red Line oil for the transmissions?

    Yes, I buy 90 wt gear oil locally. Red Line i purchase from a retailer 50 miles away and he UPS's to me. Moss Motors's MG-TD catalog lists the Red-Line 75W90NS as a "Transmission Gear Oil" - I have purchased this and it is clearly marked on the back of the container as a Hyploid Gear Oil. My understanding from this thread is that a hyploid should not be used in the gear box (Transmission). Additionally, this same product's description states that it is not recommended for use in most differentials - does this eliminate consideration of this product for use in the rear end as well?

    Moss Motor's MG-TD most recent catalog lists the Sta-Lube Gear Oil SAE 140 , Multi-purpose Hyploid as the only correct oil for gearbox, steering box, and differential. I understand the reservation on using Hyploid in the gearbox, but what might be the current wisdom for use of this in the differential?

    Now I'm off to the auto store to try to find a Red Line (Non-Hyploid) 90W gear oil for the gearbox!

     

    Eliminating TD shifter rattle

    The MG engineers very thoughtfully provided a damper spring so that the shifter rod (in the aluminum extension housing) would not rattle with engine vibration. The cumulative impact of the constant downward pressure of the plunger and the abrasion of the steel rod across the aluminum bearing surface is a ditch dug in the bearing surface. In mine it was about 1/16" deep, with the effect that the arm at the end of the rod was about 1/8" below the (somewhat) spherical bearing surface of the shift lever itself.

    Abingdon Spares quite thoughtfully provides a sintered bronze (oilite) bushing insert to alleviate this problem. Unfortunately, they do not have any good advice with respect to how to install it. The problem is that the hole is worn eccentrically in the extreme, and simply drilling or reaming out the existing hole will yield a bigger hole that is centered on the old worn hole. This will reduce the rattle but will also leave you with a shifting rod that is grievously mis-aligned.

    One must then enlarge the hole on the original axis. This problem is exacerbated by the location of the hole, about six inches from the end of the casting, and its depth, about an inch and a half. The presence of only one flat surface on this casting is another annoyance.

     

    TD Transmission Rattle

    Been driving the old TD after it's 25 year storage. At first it didn't want to go beyond 3K rpm but it seems more willing to rev every time I take it out. Had it up to 4K rpm (55mph) yesterday for the first time. I want to take it to Indy which is only 50 miles for me, but that seems like a long way at 4K.

    I expect the engine to be noisey but not the transmission. At about 2K rpm she starts to rattle. The amount of rattle depends on how hard I am accelerating. Cruising it kind of depends on exactly what rpm I'm doing, but it always gets loud when I accelerate hard. Other than the rattle, the transmission shifts smoothly and does not use any oil. If I grasp the lever firmly I can make the rattle go away. I put a new operating shaft plunger and spring in (boy were the old ones ever worn), and this made the shifting much smoother but it did not help the rattle. Any advice on what to look for? Does this sound like anything that should keep me from driving untill it is fixed? It's a little too late to do anything before Indy.

    Your problem is worn bearings. One of my TDs has had the same problem for several years. Don't let it keep you from going to Indy. Are you using 90 weight gearbox oil? Bearing replacement requires the removal of the gearbox, disassembly and special tools.

    Actually, you don't need special tools to redo bearings in a TD gearbox. The only really challenging problem is getting the shifting dogs onto the sliding hubs without having the little spring-loaded balls find inaccessible corners in your shop (and even this doesn't need to happen if you are just doing bearings). You can stake the balls into the holes one at a time by gently peening the edge of the holes with a pin punch. You do need a fake (short) shaft for installation of the laygear, but that's just a piece of rod.

    Now if I could only get my 2nd gear sliding hub (backordered since Adam was a pup) I could prove all of this.... Sigh.

    Actually, I used a large flat hose clamp to keep the steel balls from traveling around the shop. Sort of like a ring compressor, then just pushed the sliding hub into the gear.

    I get a rattle (that I think is originating in the transmission) under hard acceleration. I can subdue it by holding the shift lever tightly. I got some advice here earlier that I intend to use, but just now I don't think the problem is serious enough to warrant pulling the engine. I notice that the rattle only occures after the engine has warmed up. This makes me wonder if perhaps a heavier gear oil in the tranny might help keep the rattle down, the theory being that the tranny oil is thicker when the the engine is cold. I am presently using Valvoline SAE 85W140 gear oil. Does gear oil come in a heavier weight? Is there an oil additive that might help? Is this a stupid idea? The transmission is otherwise behaving nicely.

    I guess you know what is wrong...... The transmission has some wear in the bearings, etc, etc., hence the rattle. I don't blame you for not wanting to pull the transmission for just the rattle. Be careful about thickening up the oil too much. You do have a couple of "quick fix", "tuneup in a can" type solutions. Red Line is the name of a high tech synthetic gear oil that may help. There are several oil additives on the market, such as Slick50 transmission treatment. I have used it, and it helped with my problem. ( For the curious, my problem was a stiff gear change in cold weather.) Just try one solution at a time, though. Mixing all of this stuff together would not be a good idea. The last option is just to live with it. I drove an A/H Sprite for years with a noise that may have been worse than yours.

    OR:

    Your problem may be just a vibrating shifter caused by wear in the shift selector. By tearing up the carpet and removing the transmission tunnel, you can remove the shifter extension. Examine the shift selector for wear. I just rebuilt a TD transmission, and the shift selector on that one was significantly worn. You can buy a new one, or carefully weld some new material and grind back to the original shape. Also, make sure that the detent ball and spring at the base of the shift lever are still there. Quite often they are missing. The base of the shift lever usually has a groove cut in it by the detent ball from years of use. You can turn the shift lever 180 degrees and reinstall it, to give you a new wearing surface.

     

    TD gearbox tunnel cover

    Is the rubber snug fitted before (under) or after, (over) the transmission tunnel ?

    If you look at page 140 of Horst Schach's "The Complete M.G. TD Restoration Manual", you can see that he installed the rubber snug under the transmission tunnel. Based on that reference, I did the same thing when I assembled my TF. It was a real pain to slide the metal tunnel over the rubber. I am not looking forward to removing it at some time in the future. That part of my car had been taken apart in 1960, so that, unlike most other parts of the car, I could not tell how it had been assembled at the factory. Several MG restoration experts here in the Grand Rapids, MI, area were surprised when they saw what I had done, and said that they always put the snug on top of the metal tunnel.

    I put mine on top of the tunnel too. Just trying to find the definiitive answer. the rubber cover fits under the metal transmission cover

    After (over)

     

    MG TD Tranny Rebuild - In over my head?

    I just finished dissassembling the engine to my 52 TD and packed it off to the machine shop, so I'm twiddling my thumbs and decided I should move on to the next (and actually more intimidating) project - the tranny. Greene says so little on it that I think he is suggesting I just have someone else do it, and Horscht seems to suggest that you just replace everything.

    I'm certain that I need to at least look at it, as the vehicle was stationary for 30 years and it had about 50k miles on it before that, so I'm sure there is wear and tear. Am I in over my head? Is horscht right and I should just give moss my credit card number and have them send me "one of everything"? If it is reasonable for me to do it, anyone know of tips and tricks that I should be aware of before I start removing bolts?

    If you can do an engine rebuild, the gearbox will be fairly straightforward. The only thing that you might like to make up is a dummy spindle (layshaft) for the cluster gear. It is simply a shaft 9/16" diameter 6" and 11/32" long. Wooden dowel would be OK.

    The rebuild is, IMHO not as difficult as you think, I do recommend not buying anything till you have had a chance to do a complete inspections and in some cases measurements for wear.

     

    MG TD Gearbox : end float for the lay gear?

    Can anyone tell me what the correct end float for the lay gear is for an MG TD gearbox?

    Currently, there is .034"

    0.034" is far too much clearance. Blower gives 0.48 to 0.77 mm, this is also far too much and I believe an error. MGB manual gives o.002 to 0.003 Inches ( 2 to 3 thou ) or 0.05 to 0.08 MM and I think these numbers are in the correct range. I think Blower missed a decimal and intended 0.048 to 0.077 mm, same as MGB. I have used 0.002 to 0.004" clearance and have had good results. You should aim for these figures. Usually two new thrust washers gives this clearance and may even need some taken off the faces to get clearance.

    I set mine to 0.006 by making new thrush washers. The gear noise seems to increase as the end float increases.

     

    TD Gear Box torque

    I am finally getting my gearbox back together and have got a question. How tight should the nut on the main shaft for the rear flange be?

    The similar nut on the input shaft of the differential is torqued to 140 ft/lbs. I don't expect that that amount is necessary, but if you're not using a lockwasher, then it should be close to that amount.

    Somewhere I've seen torque values for this nut but I can't lay hands on right now. I do know that you must be careful with the felt seal in this assembly as you can torque against it and get a false reading and then later the joint will loosen and the gearbox will start jumping out of gear. Make sure the splines have slid past the felt seal before the final tightening.

    I would agree with 140 ft-lbs, minimum 100 ft-lbs. On the early TD G/B this nut is the only thing locking the speedo gear to the mainshaft. Too much torque could force the split ring in front of center bearing to pop out of its groove. You are tightening against this split ring.

    First you must make absolutely certain that the felt seal is not trapped between the bearing and the flange. Use oil/grease to help slide the flange past the felt. I usually have to work the seal with a screwdriver to get it fully seated. I also remove and replace the flange a number of times (without the nut) till I can tap it home against the bearing with a satisfying metallic sound which indicates the seal is not trapped.

    If you have the earlier speedo drive gear and mainshaft without the woodruff key (pre TF, I think), you have to tighten the flange nut so that the speedo gear is held tight enough so that it cannot spin on the mainshaft. The other indicator is to look inside the box at the washer just to the rear of the first and second hub. When the mainshaft is pulled to the rear by tightening the flange nut, this washer should pull up tight to the circlip, but not to the point of bending the washer. In other words, everything to the rear of the center bearing is a sandwich. Pull it all together with the flange nut. Actually, you're locating the mainshaft in the gearbox as you do this.

    I'm at the office and doing this from memory, so if you require more detail, please feel free to contact me on or off list.

    Thanks to all who responded to my question on tightening then rear nut on the gear box. I pulled the flange off when I got home and found that it did catch the rear felt seal so the flange was not bottomed out all the way.

    I found an easy and fool proof way to solve this problem. I removed the rear housing and fit the drive shaft flange in the housing first. This way I could see that I had it properly installed inside the seal. I then slid the housing into place with the flange still in the housing. I lined up the splines and then slid the assembly home. Simple and easy!

     

    Troubleshooting TD Gearbox?

    My TD has been off the road since that day in August when something snapped at 75 mph on I-78 on the way home from the Lancaster Brits show.

    I thought it was the supercharger but after removing it, examining it, remounting it and running the car with the drive belt detached, I think the blower is ok (scratching my head).

    Symptom: running engine leads to rattle/vibration. Gearshift seems to be a little less firm in the hand than usual. Noise remains as long as engine turns, regardless of gear or neutral.

    Already ruled out: Engine compression, water pump, generator all are ok. (Detached fan belt and ran car without generator and water pump and noise remains.)

    Question: could noise be coming from gearbox/clutch? Where else could it come from?

    It could be that you blew the clutch or Throw out bearing. Does the clutch feel normal. Does it shift gears? You also could have broken or collapsed a piston.

    Is everything running normal? Shift ok start ok etc? Since this happens in neutral I would rule out the tranny at least for now and look for something loose that is causing the vibration. Does the muffler have a stay welded to it, if so maybe it has broken or how about the engine mounts front and rear?

    Maybe it's something simple. Try inspecting the engine mount and the transmission mount. I replaced both on my TD and a number of vibrations and noises went away.

    Why rule out the tranny? ... assuming that the 'TD' tranny is similar to the 'A' and 'B' trannies, then the input shaft and laygear are spinning when even the tranny is in neutral (they only stop spinning when the clutch is disengaged) ... IOW, it could be the input shaft and/or laygear bearings.

    Thanks to all of you who provided me with useful suggestions of where to look further.

    1. Clutch/shifting seems to be ok so I will rule out transmission as possible source of noise. 2. Engine & gearbox mounts seem ok. 3. Water pump & generator ok. 4. Rocker shaft/mount pads and rockers look ok. 5. Engine stabilizer ok.

    Rattle seems to come from bottom of engine, not transmission. Any ideas on how I can diagnose it without taking apart the engine?

    Could you describe for us again the rattle noises emanating from the bottom of the engine? When they occur, the sound, etc. Things that rattle when loose--oil pump, fume vent pipe, clutch linkage, air cleaner assembly, oil filter cannister, generator (3 bolts + bracket's two bolts), suspension parts....

     

    Gear box "pop" out

    My transmission was rebuilt with the car 2 years ago. Initially the gearing was very stiff but has loosened up nicely. The transmission would "pop" out SNIP

    Drop the drive shaft at the rear flange of the transmission. See if the nut on the end of the main shaft is tight. This nut must be very tight. I do not have the torque raiting. I use a 24" braker bar.

    Yes, good advice. The output shaft holds a lot of the "inner workings" in the right relationship with the gears etc. on the input or main shaft. If the nut is loose, then the rear shaft can move backwards under load, and cause a drop out. However, if the nut is tight, then there could be several other possibilities.

    1. When the box was rebuilt, the person doing the work might have got the rear felt oil seal trapped between the inner end of the rear flange and the rear bearing's guard plate, giving a false appearance of being tightened in the correct position. After a while, the seal erodes, and the shaft becomes loose.

    2. The box did not have all the work necessary to prevent drop out, carried out correctly. Drop out can also be a result of:-

    a. worn sliding hubs,

    b. worn selector shafts

    c. weak springs in sliding hubs

    d. weak springs in selector shafts locks

    e. slack in the gear lever's operation, resulting in inadequate engagement of the relative gear

    f. correct spacing washers, bearing guards and spring plates on both sides of the 'central bearing' missing

    g. any combination of the above in greater or lesser amounts.

    However, hold your breath. If the nut IS loose, chances are that was the cause of the problem. If you find it loose, place the car in first gear, and tighten the nut substantially. Repeat several times, taking the car out of gear between each cycle, to give the shaft a chance to creep forward, and bed down in it's correct position. If the oil seal was the cause, then at the worst you'll have an oil leak at the rear end of the box. If that doesn't solve the problem you will, in all probability, have to remove the box and investigate more fully.

     

    TD transmission worn remote control cover

    My transmission remote control cover is worn quite back where the shaft goes through the housing, especially the rear hole. Has anyone drilled out the housing and installed brass bushings as Horst Schach described in his "The Complete M.G. TD" book on page 108? I'm not sure I want to try this myself so I have checked with a couple of local machine shops and they aren't willing to do the work either. I'm looking for a machine shop that will do the work (hopefully some one out there knows of one) or someone who has done it themselves and can give me some pointers. I do have a Shop Smith like mentioned in the book but am concerned about being able to drill out for the bushing since my hole is now egg shape. I'm afraid the drill bit will wonder and not stay centered.

    Thanks again and thanks for the responses on my question about the gasket between the bell housing and transmission case. I still don't understand why a paper gasket isn't or can't be used if silicone sealer should be used to make a seal. And yes I did change the seal.

    I'm not sure this is the way you want to go, but the following tip appeared in the June edition of the Octagon Car Club's "Bulletin:"

    Botcher's Corner 5 minute TD gearbox overhaul: Well, not overhaul exactly, but it stops the lever rattling. Slide a front suspension rubber down the gear lever followed by a washer and a worm drive clip. Push down hard on the washer to compress the rubber and tighten the clip. This makes the action fell more positive and stops the chatter. It is hidden by the leather gaiter. By "front suspension rubber" I assume he means the A-Arm bushing.

     

    TD Gearbox gasket

    I have one quick question for the list. I am finishing up the rebuild of the gearbox and noticed there is no gasket between the bell housing and the gearbox. Is there supposed to be a gasket? If not would it hurt to make a thin paper gasket to use. I noticed when originally removed the bell housing the DPO had sealed the two pieces together with what looked like silicone sealer.

    The factory did not fit a gasket between the box and the bellhousing. A very thin film of silicone sealer will help prevent any seepage of oil between these two components.

     

    Support bracket for the transmission

    I believe my support bracket for the rear rubber mounts (under the transmission) is damaged. The front and back sides (towards the front and rear of the car) of mine look to be bent out. Can anyone tell me if these sides are supposed to be straight?

    The rear engine mount bracket should have parallel front and rear sides that are verticle and perpendicular to the frame. This is a common bending problem. As a matter of fact, I remember seeing a "fix" published in the NEMGT Register publication called The Sacred Octagon. The fix was to drill a hole on each side of the bracket from front to back and install a couple of bolts and nuts to prevent the spreading.

    My rear tranny mount does not have straight sides. They flare out about 10 degrees on both front and rear.

    The sides of that bracket should be perpindicular to the ground. A couple of years ago, a tech article in TSO attributed the owner's rough clutch engagement to the engine moving around because his bracket was flared out.

     

    MGTF rear transmission mount

    Over the last few weeks a problem has developed in my TF. I traced the problem to a cracked rear transmission support which seems to allow the drivetrain to twist under torque until the clutch engages. Definitely not good.

    Yup. Been there, done that (TD).

    Does anyone have experience with replacing >this rear mount? Once I unbolt it can I jack up the transmission and slide it out.

    Yup. It will help immensely to take off the tunnel (a non-trivial job) to get access to the various bits. It's a lot easier doing some of the bolts from above instead of below, with crud falling in your face. There are a total of four bolts that hold the mount in place, two on the upper ears and two on the lower.

    I know there is a fork that passes through the center of the mount. How difficult is it to remove?

    You don't wanna remove the fork. It's held in with a clevis pin (fastened with a cotter) on the bottom of the tranny. Very hard to get to in place. What you need to do is remove the nut on the bottom of the fork pin (under the mount) and lift the tranny sufficiently to let you slide the mount out, and vicey versey for installation. Come to think of it, you will most likely HAVE to remove the tunnel and drop the driveshaft as well. May need to loosen the exhaust pipe too. Sigh. You might be able to do it by rotating the mount as you slide it out or in....

    You will most likely find the rubber buffers inside the mount all gungy, swollen and crumbly. Replacements are readily available from the usual suspects. However, I've done this twice and still can't figger it out. With new rubbers, the fork pin only baaarrely protrudes from the bottom of the mount. I can just get enough purchase to slip a nut on it, and that's pretty tight. In theory, one is supposed to have both a rubber buffer and a washer on this pin as well, but I've never been successful in getting same on. Am I missing something, group?

    I have replaced the rear rubber mounts on my car--is that what has cracked on yours, or is it the tube on which the bracket fits, into which the little rubber blocks fit? In any case, you do have to disconnect the exhaust, loosen the front engine mounts, disconnect the turnbuckle of the front control link. You also have to lift the transmission tunnel, which means removing the seats. It took me far longer than I imagined something simple as this should take. It's all time, not skill, that's involved. The transmission has to be lifted a lot farther than one would think, since the pin/link in the center of the rear mount is surprisingly tall. THat was the hardest part for me, since the top of the transmission hit something (I forget what). Had I not replaced the front mount first, thus raising the front of the engine, I think that the replacement of the rear mounts would have been easier. While you are down in the dirt and the grease, check for wear in the clutch control linkage joints. I removed all the pins and levers, got new pins and had the worn holes filled and fitted to the pins. Great improveme

    When I did that dirty deed, it was not necessary for me to disconnect the drive shaft, but I had the same troubles with the fork pin. I put it back in place with only the washer, drove a few miles, then was able to fit the rubber buffer.

     

    TD Gear Box Insulation

    I see from pictures in the book "The Complete MG TD" that the gear box cover should have insulation glued to it. Well guess what? My DPO strikes again, it's missing. My usual catalogs do not show this part. Does anybody know where I can purchase some suitable material for this purpose? It looks like it would not be difficult to cut it out to match the pictures.

    I think this is one area where it would be unwise to skimp on insulation. I just replaced the motor mounts and took her out for a test drive without the gear box cover on (probably not a safe thing to do because the u-joint and part of the drive shaft is exposed). Without the cover, an immense amount of heat and noise come up from the transmission.

    I just removed the original insulation from mine in the course of refinishing it. Apparently these stampings were not painted originally--the blackish "finish" on mine came off entirely in the parts washer. Wonder what it was.... ;)

    The stuff is some sort of fiber, kind of like carpet underlay but thinner (abut 3/16") and more dense. I'm going to try some carpet and upholstery stores.

     

    TD Transmission Problems

    So I thought I was done restoring my '52 TD, but much to my chagrin when I took it out for its first drive last Saturday I ran into a problem.

    Last February I had purchased a re-built transmission from a gentleman from San Francisco, and I installed it in April, but wasn't able to try it out 'till last Saturday. When I did, I heard a loud thumping coming from the bell housing in whatever gear I was in. So, a friend and I pulled the transmission over the last few days, and cast a more critical eye on it then when we originally installed it. In any event, I now have several questions that I hope someone can help me with:

    1) The pressure plate is rubbing up against the bell housing where the bell housing is cast to accept the pin that holds the release bearing fork, (on both sides). This didn't happen with the old transmission, and the pressure plate and flywheel is not loose. Any ideas what can be happening here? Do they make different height pressure plates or bell housings for TD's?

    2) The spline has approximately 1/8" side to side play in it. Is this normal?

    3) In rotating the spline to turn the flange that connects to the driveshaft; every two turns it sticks a bit. It does this in every gear, and while you can still turn the spline it's obvious that it's grabbing somewhere inside the transmission. I don't think this is normal, so does anyone have any ideas what can be causing it?

    4) Lastly, but related, I had to pull the pressure plate off to make sure the flywheel bolts were tight, and I can't find torque specs for either the flywheel or pressure plate bolts. Any ideas here?

    That's it. I'll keep everybody updated with what I find.

    YES, You probably bought a 7 1/4' clutch bell housing and you have an 8" clutch. Some serious grinding away of the 7 1/4" bell housing clutch cross shaft bosses will solve the problem. Better yet, just swap the bell housings and use your original 8" one on the "rebuilt' transmission. 7 1/4" bell housings have a 5/8" clutch cross shaft, 8" bell housings have a 3/4" clutch cross shaft.

    2)NO, some play will be present, but 1/8" sounds on the high side. If the needle rollers at the rear of the first motion shaft ( clutch shaft ) were not replaced, some excess play may be evident. Also, the front ball bearing may have too much play. In any case, the crankshaft bush must be new and a nice snug fit on the first motion shaft . This will help support the first motion shaft and probably you could live with the 1/8" play. New front ball bearing and new input spigot roller needles should reduce the play.

    Tough call from afar, but since its regular and in the same place, I would suspect the laygear is hanging up on one of either, input gear from first motion shaft, or third gear or second gear. Possibly one of these gear sets has a slight imperfection and causes the gears to "stick'. I would strip the box and check EVERYTHING. Look for a burred gear tooth?

    Flywheel is 50 ft-lbs. Clutch pressure plate mounting bolts torque is 20 to 25 ft-lbs, depending on how new and what grade bolts are being used. If you have the original bolts, I would go 20 to 22 ft-lbs and Loctite the bolts on assembly. New grade 8.8 bolts can tolerate 25 ft-lbs. Of course bolt size is 8.0 x 1.0 mm. Some sources will say 29 to 32 ft-lbs, but these are too high and you face a real danger of shearing a bolt if you go to these higher torques. Check or replace ( not forgetting to pre-oil ) the oilite bush in the end of the crank while the clutch is off to ensure it is a nice snug fit to the input shaft spigot.

     

    TD/TF transmission

    Am I safe in assuming that the TD transmission is interchangeable with the TF (1250 ) transmission?

    Gearbox the same but watch out for Bell housings...there is some difference there with the two different clutch arrangements.

    I agree, 7 1/4" clutch TD gearbox will not bolt into a TF unless you change the bell housing. There are other minor internal differences/improvements between the two boxes. A 7 1/4" clutch/bell housing TD box ( early ) has a 5/8" diameter clutch cross shaft, the 8" late TD/TF bell housing has a 3/4" clutch cross shaft.

     

    Transmission / axle: gear ratio

     

    TC rear axle gearing

    Have you had any experience in changing the TC rear axle ratio? I'm thinking about getting one of Roger Furneaux's new ring and pinion sets while I'm in Europe this summer. I think it's about a 4.8 (but I'm working from memory at the moment, it might be a 4.6). I've also got Carl Cederstrand's book on converting the TD/F which has some interesting comments on using a Stewart Warner speedo gear modification to get the speedo back on track. Apparently from Carl's comments the main effect is to slow down engine wear at "normal" highway speeds (65 mph or so) at the cost of some hill climbing ability that might require a bit more frequent changing down to third. Acceleration is much less affected, I guess. Since over the next decade or so I anticipate moderate distance driving to GOF's etc, I thought it would be a worthwhile modification. I realize that MGA ring and pinion sets can be used, but suspect that the setup and machining required might be more than what seems to be a "drop in" for Roger's gears. Any thoughts on this? Would you say its worth the bother for a TC driven 2-4,000 miles a year (maybe more as I get closer to retirement in 10-15 years)?

    In my opinion improving the gearing on any pre- 1962 MG is worthwhile. These cars were built to perform well on English secondary roads where acceleration was more important than a high cruising speed. The introduction of superhighways and our much longer driving distances has made a higher ratio rear axle gearing very desireable. However, keep in mind that a stock TC overall gearing is much better than a TD or TF due to the larger wheel/tire diameter of the TC. Speed in MPH is 15.64 per 1000 engine RPM in top gear, so 4,000 RPM gives you 62.56 MPH, not bad. Changing to a 4.875 ratio gives 16.43/1000 RPM or 65.72 MPH at 4,000 RPM. Changing to a 4.55 ratio gives 17.65/1,000 RPM or 70.6 MPH, possibly too much for a stock engine. You can calculate your own figures using the formula: MPH = RPM x Tire OD in inches divided by Gear ratio x 336. Of course any change in axle gear ratio will affect the speedometer reading, for a single ratio change down, I don't think its worthwhile to alter the speedo as it was probably optimist anyway. Would I change a a stock TC axle ratio just for the sake of better gearing when driving 2,000-4,000 miles a year? Probably not, unless I had to buy new gears anyway. So here are my comments on the question of how to improve the gear ratio: The MGA gears and Carl C. book are applicable ONLY to the TD/TF rear axle . No use for TC except for general discussion unless you are thinking of changing the whole axle unit ( see below ). I have listed some of your options below, of course any reference to a TC also includes the TA and TB as they all use the same axle design. I have driven a TC for 60,000 miles with a 4,875 ratio and found it very satisfactory. When I rebuild the car again, I will use a 4.55 ratio as the more relaxed highway cruising speed for our roads is justified. I also have a TD with 4.3 ratio MGA gears and a TF XPEG 1500 engine, this also works well but again, I would install a 4.1 ratio next time. To inprove the gearing on a TC you need to either buy a TA gear set ( 4.875 ratio), a Roger F. gear set ( 4.625 RATIO ), or change the whole rear axle to something else which has better ratios. Sorry, one more option is to put a Morris 1000 differential ( 4.55 ratio ) using the TC housing. Also, apparently some Ford units fit, but these require special axle shafts. I chose changing the whole rear axle on my TC to an MGA unit with the track reduced to TC dimensions and now have a choice of 5.125, 4.875. 4.55, 4.3, 4.1 or 3.9 ratios which will all fit the MGA housing. Of course these last three ratios are totally wrong for a TC. I used the TC brake back plates, brakes, Alfin drums, wheel bearing carrier and wire wheel hubs so the installation looks entirely stock. The housing, gear unit, axle shafts and wheel bearings are MGA. The MGA axle unit requires a slightly shorter driveshaft which I made from an MGB unit. The MGA axle unit gives a stronger unit than stock TC, better choice of gear ratios, is less expensive for me, and all the components are MG. Changing the gear ratio to 4.875 or 4.625 TC gears is a fairly straight forward bolt-in job, untill you come to setting up the gears. I have not much experience in setting up a gear set from scratch and don't know if the Roger F. 4.625 set has any detailed instructions. The TC manual, as well as other MG books, give some details on how to set the correct mesh and backlash of the gears. Installation of a Morris 1000 4.55 diff unit requires removing the TC spider gears and installing them in the Morris diff in order for the TC axle shafts to fit the splines. My analysis indicated that about 1/8" has to be machined off the face of the Morris housing in order to get the axle centerline the same as the TC. However, some installations have been made without this machining and apparently work OK. You have to drill the TC bolt hole pattern into the Morris diff and then bolt it in. I have no details or experience fitting a Ford diff. This reply is far from a complete "how to " instruction and is intended only to explore some of the options available. Cost and necessity are important considerations when making your desision. No doubt other options are possible and I would like to hear of any other alternatives or experiences from owners.

    Two years ago I had the rear axle gears changed on my TD mKII (4.875 was the gearing in the MkII) to 4.1 from the MGA. I am most pleased with the change. Carl Cedarstrand's book said, if I remember correctly, that the 4.3 was preferred by most owners. I opted for the 4.1 on the basis that the MkII has the three or six additional raging ponies and could carry the higher ratio. I note that Moss advocates 4.55. Just yesterday I had an opportunity to drive a standard TD that had just been fitted with a Datsun 5-speed. As I am not at all sure that the instruments are accurate, the 3700 rpm at 65mph may or may not be true. It seemed to be a workable rig. The owner did not discuss the cost of having the conversion performed, so I can't compare to my experience. Perhaps later in the warm weather we can get the two cars together for a comparison.

     

    TD Gear Ratio

    The most commonly ratio recommended for the TD is 4.33 which is a standard MGA ratio and readily available. I put a 4.55 in mine because I do a lot of driving in the hills of upstate New York and New England. It was a great improvement but it was hard to find. If I was a flatlander I probably would have opted for the 4.33.

    The gear you want is from an MGA 4.3-1, not from a B 3.9-1! The B is way to low. Your TD if it's stock has a 5.125-1 rear. Great acceleration but hardly something for long highway driving without the engine screaming away. My TD is set up a little stronger than the TD MK.II and I believe that extra power gives me a perfect balance with the 4.3-1 rear. Third gear is wonderful around town. You might go to the 4.875 or the 4.55-1 as an alternative to the 4.3-1 with the 1250 cc engine for a little better acceleration, but still gives you a buzzy 60mph.

    Might suggest that you refer your questions to the guru of differentials, Carl Cederstrand of Brea, California. He wrote the book on changing the ratios. Carl is at <cederstrand@earthlink.net . BTW, I'm in the act of installing a set of 4.30 gears into my '52TD.

    Even the 4.33:1 of the MGA is a bit too tall if you live in hilly terrain. The optimum for a TD with a more-or-less stock engine is the MG Magnette 4.55:1 ratio.

     

    TD/TF transmission with a better (close) ratio

    1) The (Brown & Gammons) do a new gear set for the TD/TF transmission with a better (close) ratio. I'd like to try this sometime.

    2) They are now seling the 4.3 and 4.55 ring and pinion gears for the TD/TF transmission. We have a number of club members who are ordering these for replacement this winter.

    MG TD/TF Closer Ratio Gears Stronger (2X tooth width), better ratios, fits original gearbox case. Set consists of the input shaft, laycluster, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear. Ratios of: 1st 2.86 (3.5); 2nd 1.84 (2.07); 3rd 1.33 (1.385); top 1.1 (1.1) 899.00 Pounds Sterling (17.5% VAT included)

    I figure that's an end price of around $1250, plus shipping. Seems like a deal to me.

    I don't know what the second set of numbers (in parentheses) is behind each ratio. Let me know if you figure it out.

    175 pounds sterling minus VAT plus about 40 pounds shipping cost per set. Also, figure on replacing bearings, gasket, spacer tube and drive flange. All totaled, I'm paying around $450 each for the conversion, doing the work myself.

    I don't understand why you don't buy a good used complete MGA gear set which has all the parts needed to convert a TD/TF to 4.3 ratio. Cost will be less than $200.00 . Personally, I would'nt bother with a 4.55 set, 4.3 ratio is ideal for a 1250 cc TD ( IMHO ). A TF or TD/TF 1500 could pull a higher ratio of 4.1 or even 3.9.

    The backlash is not set with tooling. The tooling - which I have made myself - is nothing more than a sturdy plate that can be bolted on to the opened housing. It has a dial gauge mounted to it, which bears on the pinion. It is not important to know what the distance is between the pinion head and the axle axis, only that it can be measured in relation to the new pinion position. That determines the required spacer thickness. The objective is to get the pinions in exactly the same position.

    The backlash is determined by the position of the ring gear in relation to the pinion. Once the pinion is in correct position, the backlash is easy. If you have not messed with the distance collars, it should be the same on the new gears as it was on the old. The ring gear position does not change. Yes, I know that the MGA gears are not dimensionally the same as the TD/TF gears, but remember, these are not MGA gears. They are drop in replacements for the TD gears. Only the number of splines on the pinion force a new flange.

    By the way, backlash can be figured out simply enough, too. Since backlash is simply the rotation one gear can go through without moving its mate, the angular rotation at the ring gear can be indirectly measured at the flange. Since we know that the flange rotates 5.125 times (on the TD) for every one turn of the ring gear, and you know the ratio of circumferences ring gear to pinion flange, one can calculate the ring gear backlash based on the backlash measured at the flange. Just as an example, if you put a bolt into one of the flange bolt holes, you can measure the circumferal distance between clicks of the gear backlash. Since the bolt hole is at a radius of 1.4", working the math out tells us that the required .006" of backlash at the ring gear is roughly equivalent to .030" at the flange bolt hole.

    This is not a method described in Carl Cedarstrand's book, but is mathematically correct. And it's a lot easier than measuring the way he describes.

    All this is well and good, but the job is not done yet. I'll let the group know how things turn out. That is if everyone else doesn't beat me to the entire supply of gears.

    To each his own, as they say.

    First, have you tried to actually find an MGA gear set? And the flange required?

    Second, it all depends on the types of hills you climb. Yes, on shallow hills an on freeways, the 4.3 WOULD be ideal. But where I live the hills are a bit steeper. I also find, by reading Carl Cedarstrand' book, that the reduction in RPM at 60 - 65 MPH would put me in a range where my particular engine loves to run. I don't need 3750 RPM. I like 4000 just fine.

    I have available for sale several good used sets of MGA 1500/1600, 4.30 ( 10/43 ) ratio, crown wheel and pinion assemblies at a cost of $200.00 US$ plus shipping or you arrange pick-up. This is the complete center section and includes gears, CWP, bearings, flange, bearing spacer and pinion location thickness washer etc as removed from a car. Everything you need to install a 4.30 gear set into a TD or TF. You need to surface grind the thickness washer to remove approx. 0.030" for installation in a TD/TF housing, adjust the bearing spacer to get the preload, and possibly adjust the carrier bearing spacers ( + and -- ), to move the crown wheel sideways to obtain the correct backlash. I have installed many of these units and I find the 4.3 ratio too low in my XPEG 1500 cc TD, Other owners with 1250 cc engines find 4.3 ideal.

     

    TF axle ratio

    Next question now involves driveability.

    I want to upgrade my gear ratio on the TF to something a bit more reasonable. I don't pull stumps much anymore so first gear is pretty much unuseable and highway speed just wrings that poor little 1250 to the limit.

    Does anyone have any tips on doing a gear change? I do have a spare MGA rear axle that could be a donor but it's a wire wheel axle and my TF will stay a solid wheel car. Not sure about the possibilities there.

    Having dealt with trucks, where tractibility and gear ratios are are of the equation, I can tell you that it depends on where you live, what you want to do. Going to a 4.3, 4.1, or 3.9 rear end ratio is possible, but there are trade-offs. First of all, it is doubtful that you have a standard bore engine any more, unless you've resleeved and gone back to 66.5mm bore. So, you have a larger than 1250cc engine. OK. Now then, using a Pirelli 165 R 15 tire for reference purposes, it has a diameter of 23 inches; a rolling radius of 11.5 inches. The number of tire revolutions per mile = 10084 ˜ RR (11.5"), which equals 877. What final drive rpm would you like to run? As the rear end ratios are not variable, the choices easy to figure. All calculations will be made at 60 mph. 4.55 rear end = 60 ˜ 877 X 60 ˜ 4.55 = 3990 rpm 4.3 rear end = 60 ˜ 877 X 60 ˜ 4.3 = 3770 rpm 4.1 rear end = 60 ˜ 877 X 60 ˜ 4.1 = 3595 rpm 3.9 rear end = 60 ˜ 877 X 60 ˜ 3.9 = 3420 rpm The ideal axel ratio if you wanted to go 60 mph at 3000 rpm would be: 3000 ˜ 877 X 60 ˜ 60 = 3.42. Well, you can't have that one. If I were in a mountain area, I would not go below a 4.55 rear end. Some hills, a lot of freeways, and flat 4.3 or 4.1. 3.9 is useable in a 1500cc (1466cc) engine. You will get to use third gear a little more, so tha you will now ahve two gears to use; third and fourth. Carl Cederstrand wrote a book on doing the actual work on changing the gears in your TD/TF differential. You could take the gears out of your MGA rear end (preferred) or locate MGA solid wheel axles, drums, and wheels. The MGA rear end has stronger axles. BUT, the MGA wheels are four bolt.

    By the way, the conversion to the MGA gearset I mentioned in my previous message cost each member $450 in parts. This included all new MGA gears, bearings, spacers, and sundries.

    Actually, the TF standard ratio rear end ratio is not that unreasonable. At 4.55 it is much more usable that the TD which used a 5.125 ratio.

    I just completed conducting a differential workshop for our local club members in which 6 of us converted to the 4.55 ratio from the original 5.125. I'm personally pleased as I have increased my speed by 8 MPH at any given RPM. I can now cruise at 65 MPH by doing around 4250 RPM, which is where I used to be at 57 MPH - about as much as I wanted to push the engine. One could use the 4.3 gear set from an MGA, with some loss of hill climbing ability.

    To do the conversion is not a difficult process, I just takes a lot of trial fitting and measuring. Carl Cedarstrand published a booklet some years ago on the procedures. This is still available from Moss Motors. It details the steps necessary to use MGA ring and pinion gears in a TD/TF rear end. I does require changing the spacers to the MGA style, and some gringing of the carrier bearing spacers. Overall, it's not a bad procedure.

    Unfortunately, one cannot use the whole MGA rear axle, since it's way too wide.

    The most difficult part of the whole operation is being able to measure the pinion head location. We did this by making up a pinion measuring tool. It consists of a flat steel plate which will slip over the axle case half bolts. From this is hung a cradle to hold a dial gauge which bears against the pinion head, thus allowing you to measure the relative positions of the original pinion and the new MGA one. I was surprised how well this tooling worked.

    The final option, of course is to have someone else do the conversion. University Motors (Ada, Michigan) will do the change over, but it somewhat expensive due to all the labor involved.

    Unless your TF engine has been hopped up, or unless you live where there are no hills of any consequence (and I don't mean mountains, just hills), you'll find the MGA's 4.33 axle ratio is a bit too high. I speak from personal experience, having owned and driven many Ts with both ratios.

    The ideal is a 4.55 ratio, available from a Z magnette rear axle, or from Moss, who have just made available a kit to convert to 4.55. This does not sound like much of a change from the TF's original 4.875 but it does make a worthwhile difference.

    Of course, plan B would be to fit the superb 5-speed gearbox conversion offered by Steve Neal in New England. It costs $1,750 or so but, if you haven't rebuilt your stock gearbox yet, that's about what a rebuild and a rear axle change would cost. The other benefit is that you get a quiet, smooth-shifting gearbox into the bargain!

    By the way, whether an MGA rear end is wire- or steel-wheeled makes no difference for the T-conversion as you take the gears out of the pumpkin and adapt them to your differential.

    For the first time in my life I must disagree with the above given response.

    I converted my 53 TD to the MGA 4.33 gear ratio many year ago (around 20 as I recall) and have had excellent results. I can cruise at freeway speeds (around 65 mph) without beating the engine to death and have but minimal problems on steep grades. And, I live in real mountains.

    For those of you that were fortunate enough to have attended the GoF West 1997 you will recall the grade that must be pulled between Salt Lake City and Park City. You gain over three thousand feet of altitude in about 15 miles. I live in Park City and make that trip 15-20 times each summer. Granted, I do not pull it in forth gear, but third works just fine.

    The trade-off for high end travel on the flats is well worth the occassional use of third fear.

    The TF has a 4.875 gear set, which was used in combination with the 5.50 x 15 tires. Modern radials willl make that an effective ratio of 5.nnn since the radials will have a smaller rolling circumference. Check the MGA axle for it's gear ratio. That is marked on the gear set somewhere. Most TD/TF people find the 4.3 axle best, some prefer the 4.555 and some the 4.1 from the MGA. It's the gears that you will move over to the TF.

     

    Changing Rear End Ratio in a TD

    I've always shied away from highway driving in my TD. The engine just doesn't sound too happy at 4000rpm. I've finely decided to take the plunge and change the rear end ratio. My mechanic has an MGA parts car, and is ready to sell me any parts I need from the rear end. Are the ring and pinion gears the only two parts I'll need from the MGA?

    Also, what is the recommended ratio for highway driving? Here are the options I've found:

    Standard TD 5.125 3900rpm @ 55mph (What I have now) TD option 4.875 3700rpm @ 55mph TD option 4.555 3470rpm @ 55mph (Gears available from Moss) MGA 4.3 3300rpm @ 55mph MGA 4.1 3120rpm @ 55mph

    My mechanic claims the MGA parts car has a ratio of 4.5, but I only see 4.3 and 4.1 in the literature. Is he mistaken?

    I've always shied away from highway driving in my TD. The engine just doesn't sound too happy at 4000rpm. I've finely decided to take the plunge and change the rear end ratio. My mechanic has an MGA parts car, and is ready to sell me any parts I need from the rear end. Are the ring and pinion gears the only two parts I'll need from the MGA?

    No. If you choose to use MGA ring and pinion, you'll also need the driving flange, the pinion distance tube and spacer. Bearings for at least the pinion will also be required. But it's better to buy those new. Optionally, as long as you are in there, you'll probably want to replace the carrier bearings if they aren't brand new. (By the way, I have a full set of bearings for sale, if you need them.)

    Also, what is the recommended ratio for highway driving? Here are the options I've found:

    Standard TD 5.125 3900rpm @ 55mph (What I have now) TD option 4.875 3700rpm @ 55mph TD option 4.555 3470rpm @ 55mph (Gears available from Moss) MGA 4.3 3300rpm @ 55mph MGA 4.1 3120rpm @ 55mph

    It depends upon the type of driving you do. If all you do is freeway driving across nice flat states, the 4.3 is good. If, like me, you do a bit more hills, I find the 4.55 ideal. Don't consider anything lower ratio than 4.3. Since the TD transmission gearing is different than an MGA, don't expect that you'll get the same RPM/Speed combinations as the MGA. I find that with a 4.55 rear end, I do just about 60 MPH at 4000 RPM. I can also happily do 65 MPH, at about 4250 - 4300 RPM. All this with a slight reduction in hill climbing ability. I know find, with a 4.55 ratio, that hills I used to take in 4th gear, now require 3rd.

    My mechanic claims the MGA parts car has a ratio of 4.5, but I only see 4.3 and 4.1 in the literature. Is he mistaken?

    No, a 4.55 ratio was available. I know, because I'm running one in the TD.

    Carl Cedarstrand wrote a very good booklet on the subject of rear end conversions some years ago. It is still available from Moss Motors. I highly recommend you get a copy and read up on the theory and practice. I used it as the basis of a workshop I conducted for our local club last winter. We did 6 conversions in one day. To a person, everyone is very happy with the 4.55 ratio.

    To the best of my recollection, your TD is doing 15 mph per 1000 rpm with the standard 5.125 diff. This should be reduced to 839 rpm at 15 mph with the 4.3, or 3356 rpm at 60 mph. The XPAG may be happy at 4000 rpm, but I'm not. That's why I put the 4.3 in. Don't find myself "rowing" through the gears any more than I used to with the original. It was a good swap.

    This is a case of comparing apples and oranges. The rolling radius of the tires have to be taken into account. A 4.40x19 tire is MUCH larger than the 5.50x15 tire. Hence a lower numerical rearend ratio will give more MPH per 1000 RPM. Taller tires with a common ratio will give the same effect. To wit:

    A TA with the standard rear end ratio gives 16.67 mph per 1000 rpm with a top speed of 80 (approx) mph

    The TD with the standard rear ratio gives 14.4 mph per 1000 rpm and a top of 77-83 mph (88 for the Mk 2). The enhanced top speed is because of the rev capability of the XPAG versus the old 1292 engine.

    The MGA ratio will make the TD tolerable on the highway, with the cost of slightly less acceleration. This can be offset by a little special tuning.

    This is a case of comparing apples and oranges. The rolling radius of the tires have to be taken into account. A 4.40x19 tire is MUCH larger than the 5.50x15 tire. Hence a lower numerical rearend ratio will give more MPH per 1000 RPM. Taller tires with a common ratio will give the same effect. To wit:

    A TA with the standard rear end ratio gives 16.67 mph per 1000 rpm with a top speed of 80 (approx) mph

    The TD with the standard rear ratio gives 14.4 mph per 1000 rpm and a top of 77-83 mph (88 for the Mk 2). The enhanced top speed is because of the rev capability of the XPAG versus the old 1292 engine.

    The MGA ratio will make the TD tolerable on the highway, with the cost of slightly less acceleration. This can be offset by a little special tuning.

     

    Gear/tranny changes

    One of our club members has a '53 MGTD, and was asking if there are any kits available for his car which would increase the highway speed. Perhaps an overdrive set up or tranny conversion to get more MPH. If anyone has experience with this subject, could you let me know about it.

    Steve Neal, Skyhook Engineering, 1024 Mere Pt Rd, Brunswick, ME, 04011, 207-729-4489 supplies a kit, the basis of which is a Datsun B-210 gearbox. The kit has bell housing, clutch, clutch ancillaries, gearbox mount, driveshaft, etc, etc, and he loans to you the jig for drilling three holes in flywheel. Steve has been involved with T-series MGs for years, and has one of these conversions in his Y saloon. At least two of our CT MG Club members have these units in their cars now. There is another conversion available, based on the Ford Sierra 5 speed. It is mentioned in the MG Owners Club catalogue, but I do not know the components in the kit or anyone who has installed one. MGOC phone # is +44 (0) 1954 230928. Cost of the kit in catalogue is L899, approx $1350. John Esposito, Quantum Engineering, mentioned a TD five-speed conversion based on Sierra gearbox, but I know no more about it. Both conversion Skyhook and MGOC gearboxes have a .82 top gear ratio.

    Bob Gruneau supplies a conversion of the TD rear end to the MGA 4.3 ratio which lets the car cruise at highway speeds at significantly lower revs. This modification is consistent with the historic character of the car.

    A much less expensive, easier and more original idea is to install a higher diff ratio, 4.3, 4.1 or 3.9 in the TD housing. Makes first gear more useful as well. Gives approximately the same final drive as an O/D 5 speed. Leave the Datsun/Sierra etc transmissions for Datsun/Fords.

    My understanding is that the MPAG's horsepower peaks at 5400 rpm with 50 BHP. (Actually, it's 54 HP at 5200 RPM) This is the horsepower required to push the car 80 mph. The rear end ratio of 5.125 (either by design or accident) yields 80 mph at 5400 rpm. Therefore, changing this ratio in either direction will actually decrease the top end capability of the car.

    So ironically, overdrive will make the car slower with regard to top end. On the other hand, a lower ratio is said to make the TD much more agreeable at highway speed. I'm the only member of our local T series club that hasn't converted to the MGA 4.3 rear end gears.

    It's not an issue of ultimate top speed. It's the gentler sound of an XPAG only spinning at 3600-ish rpm at 60 mph.

    I have had a 4.3 gear set ( from an MGA ) in my TD for over 20 years. I also have an XPEG 1500 block in the car. With this 1500 engine setup, the 4.3 ratio is too low and I would install a 4.1 or even 3.9 next time. I have a friend who has his TD block bored and sleeved to 72 mm ( 1500 ) and he is very happy with early MGB 3.9 diff gears in his TD. We also run modern radialk 165 x 15" tires.

    One thing to remember is most modern radial tires ( 165 x 15" ) have a lower profile than the original 5.50 x 15" bias ply tires so a single step drop in gear ratio is probably required just to restore the original overall gearing of the TD. For my money, if I was using a 1250 engine in a TD or TF , I would use 4.3 gear set and be happy cruising at about 60-65 mph. With a 1500 engine in a TD or TF, 4.1 or even 3.9 seems to work fine, particularily with the smaller diameter modern radials.

    That is what I did in my TD MkII, changing from the 4.875 to 4.1 gears. It has met my expectations. I saved the 4.875 gears, thinking that if someone were to want to buy the car in the future, he might want them for sake of invisible originality. Since the 4.1 change has been such an improvement, I do not imagine that anyone would want to revert to 4.875. Do you think that I should continue to save them, or would it be better to offer them for sale in TSO to keep the gear supply supplied?

    Still the best conversion is too 4.5 gears for a stock TD. It is the best of both worlds. I have used them all and can vouch for this. If you have pumped up the 1250, or put in a 1500, then you can handle a 4.3. You just find that you will use the gear lever a little more, so as not to screw up the BMEP of the engine. Most TDs will really struggle to do 80 MPH, no matter what. Your best max cruising speed is 4130 RPM. At this point you exceed 2550 ft. per min. of piston speed, at which time the wear rate on the engine is excessive for sustained operation. My own car with 4.3 gears cruises all day at 3600 RPM/60 MPH. I can do 4000 turns/68 MPH, but the gas mileage drops off some due to the "shoebox" effect of the cars shape.

     

    TD/TF ring and pinion gears

    The topic of final gear ratios for the TD/TF has been debated frequently on the list and from my research, this is what I can offer on the subject. The 8/41 (5.125:1) gear set was standard on the TD and an alternate for the TF. The 8/39 (4.875:1) was standard on the TF and an alternate on the TD and finally the 9/41 (4.55:1 was an alternate for both the TD and TF. The MGA was apparently fitted with a 10/43 (4.30:1) as standard. Now that I've got you wondering about the topic of this message, please read on....

    An acquaintance operates a very successful Land Rover restoration and repair business here in Salt Lake City. He works with older models only and over the years has had the same problems with rear axle ratios that haunt the MG-T series. Replacement ring and pinion gears are difficult to come by and the available ratios are never ideal (sounds familiar). His solution was to have the gear sets manufactured. Obviously, this is an undertaking that requires time, connections, savvy and capital. He's now into his forth batch of 100 gear sets and the venture has proved to be successful. The details of how one goes about manufacturing gears is too involved for this list but suffice it to say it's an undertaking that requires global (European) connections.

    During a recent British Car Club meeting we were discussing his business and the subject of the gear sets came up. I asked how the new gears were manufactured and was told all that is needed is an original set for the overall pattern and the specifications for the new set (desired ratio, surface treatment, finish). Obviously, the design of hypoid bevel gears is not for the faint of heart and the real details (pitch circle, tooth properties, offset, materials) are handled by the engineers. There are also limitations to what ratios can be accommodated.

    Now I was curious and asked if he would be interested in having gears for T-series MG's (TD & TF) manufactured. He said he would consider such an undertaking but first we would need to assess the interest. Which is the purpose of my message on the list. The first question is "what would be the level of interest in the perfect gear set given it would likely cost between $300-$400?". Moss offers the 9/41 gear set ($250) and Abingdon Spares offers the 8/41 ($365) and 8/39 ($265) sets. I understand that an MGA 10/43 (4.30:1) gear set can be installed in the TD/TF differential but I'm not familiar with the associated costs or the skill required to do so (Carl Cedarstrand will have to answer that one).

    The second question is "if you could redesign the TD/TF rear axle - what would be the perfect ratio?". What would be the merits and/or problems associated with say a 9/40 (4.44:1) ratio (assuming the gear geometry works out)?

     

    TD real axle grear ratio

    I'm going to take advantage of a Moss Motors sale and buy the kit to fit a lower ratio rear axle into my 51 TD. My question is this: when cruising now I run around 3500 rpm at 50 mph. What kind of decrease of rpm can I expect with the 4.55:1 ration from Moss at 50mph? Secondly, it this a straight ratio calculation? By this I mean:

    4.55/5.125 = 0.8878 thus 3500 * 0.8878 = 3107 rpm

    The answer is 'yes'. With the standard TD tires/gearing, the magic number is 14.4 mph/1000 rpm. With the 4.55 gearing that becomes 16.2/K, with 4.30 it's 17.2/K. I seem to recall that you're up in the hilly country so the 4.55 is probably a better bet for you than the 4.3 would be.

    What size tires are you using? On my chart, 50.40 mph is the road speed one would get at 3500 rpm on 165x15 radials. With those tires and a 4.55 ratio, one would achieve about 56.70 mph. Have you considered 4.3? 3500 rpm would give 60.06 on those tires.

    The 14.4 is true with the original tires. Changing from the 5.50x15 Dunlop Gold Seal to a 165x15 radial drops the road speed by 3.75 mph with the original, 5.125, gearing. The original Dunlops were even taller than current Firestone 5.60x15. To get back to the 50mph cruise at 3500 rpm using the Dunlops, one would need a ratio between 4.555 and 4.875 if using radials.

    In the few years I've been following this list, rear end ratios and highway speeds has probably been the most talked about topic. Comments seem to fall into two schools... one (either large or particluarly vocal) group that favors tall rear end ratios and high highway speeds, and the other group (to which I belong) which sees highway travel as a necessary evil. I'm most comfortable in my car on a winding country road traveling 40 miles an hour. When a freeway run is unavoidable, 55 miles in the right lane (which is under 3500 rpm with my T. F. rear end) is tolerable, and in my rationalization, reasonably safe. I keep plenty of distance from the car in front of me, and ignore the temptation to compete with modern cars at modern speeds. I have another car for that, and if I'm really in a hurry that's what I'll use. I drive a TD with a rebuilt and somewhat modified engine. The car is at peace with itself with the current rear end ratio. I do sometimes find myself reaching for fifth gear, but I think that is conditioning from my everyday car.

    I share a lot of your thoughts. Some folks envy us here in New England because of the many miles of good country motoring with twisting roads passing through some of God's best scenery. Perfect for 40-45 mph TD-ing. However, getting there can mean a trip on the Interstate and that's where we differ. Cruising at 55 is dangerous on most of the major roads, even here in what Road & Track once called "the slow corner" of the country. It's not quite as bad if you're in a convoy of lbc's. I find it significantly safer being able to cruise at 60 with occassional stretches at 65, if necessary. There's something about the 85-percentile speed. BTW, even with the 4.30 I still find myself reaching for that elusive 5th gear. I think it's an automatic reaction dictated by our ears.

    This may well be the most talked about topic. I think it's the one that causes the most introspection about the owner's use of the car, peace of mind, modification of a well-designed automobile, plus assorted other factors. I know that I worried about making the change of ratios for several years before doing it. In my case, it came down to a matter of perceived survival of engine and rear 1/4 of the TD. One thinks of CT as being a state of back roads. That's a perception only partly true. Along the coast, there are no good ways to get east or west except by using Interstate 95. Though that is the name of the road, the condition of driver literacy is such that drivers of normal cars, sport utes and 80,000 lb (rated, though invaribly overloaded) semi trailers believe the speed limit to be 95. There is so much traffic on the roads at all hours that one simply doesn't have the option to drive 55 in the slow lane. Doing that gets you passed by cars driving the the breakdown lane. One does get to admire the variety of arm and hand gestures that have been developed in New England. The alternative to I-95 is the old Boston Post Road, that runs pretty much as it did in pre-revolutionary times, though traffic may be slower today than then because of the stoplights. E - W trips of more than 30 miles or so just require that one drive on I-95 rather than the Boston Post Rd. ] The ratio change actually works out quite well. Since one shifts out of first gear at about 5 mph with standard gearing, it's now more useful. Second and third are as versatile as ever. The engine has sufficient torque to push the car around town happily. Fourth is engaged at 40-45 or so. Having had the 4.1 gears for three years now, I think that they have made it possible for me to get more use of the car than I could have had otherwise, participate in more club events, travel to tech sessions and to enjoy the driving (rather than dreading it) when forced to use the interstate.

    When I had my last TF, it had the stock 4.875 rear, and Hiway speeds were only attainable at RPM that made me clench my tet really hard. I changed the rear for an MGA 4.30 and was happy about the reduced RPM while at least getting up to Hiway speed (if you could believe your MG speedometer - which seems to lie about 10% on most every MG I have had apart from the B). Then, however, when we would go on MG weekend trips to the Sierra Nevada, and we had to negotiate thos long steep upgrades, I was in 2nd while others with the stock setup were in 3rd. I could catch up with the pack on the next downgrade, but God forbid that the fellow in front of me in the caravan slowed a little too much before the upgrade! I needed a running start! Now, with my TC that has a 5.1 rear, and 19" wheels, all is right(er). After a lot of MG driving, it is now clear to me that those MG engineers at the works, had it about right from the start for the average road conditions of the day, and the intended use for the car. Only the Japanese cars seem to be able to squeeze power enough out of small displacement to drive the their modern aerodynamic soppository shapes of today to speeds previously the sole domain of the big blocks or expensive sports cars.

    The moral of the story is to be sure that your MG and its intended purpose are properly suited to one another. I much prefer to toodle along at 40 or 50 and occasionally go for a brisk run with windscreen down on the freeway. For those who are nervous about driving on the freeway at 55 or 60, put a sign on the back that says STUDENT DRIVER. Other motorists will cut you a wide berth. I remember a cartoon by that famous auto characaturist Brockbank showing an old couple driving along in an old saloon shaped like a 18 80 leading a long line of entrapped modern cars behind it with a sign hanging off the registration bracket saying "RUNNING IN." Might try that too.

    MGA 1600 MK 2 had the 4.1 ratio and this will bolt into a TD/TF housing. A gear set will cost about $200.00, possibly more as this ratio is relatively rare. Installation is extra. A 4.3 ratio is generally considered ideal for the average use TD with a 1250 cc block. I have a 1500 XPEG block and 4.3 ratio in my TD and could probably pull the 4.1 ratio. Even a 4.3 ratio car will require some engine power improvement to work satisfactorily.

     

    TD RPM's

    My next question with regard to rear axle gear ratio is this: What is your opinion on cruising at 3500 RPM? Is this moderate or high? How about 4000? It seems to me that 3500 is running the engine pretty fast. This is one my reasons for wanting a different ratio.

    I regularly run on 95/495/Mass. Pike at 60-65 mph which is 3500-3800 in my TD with the 4.30 gears. It seems quite content there. Oil pressure stays up, water temperature stays down.

    My 52 TD runs very happily all day long at 4000 to 4500 RPM. Over 4500 it develops some points bounce. With a tighter-than-spec points setting it's happy up to 5000 and 5500 for short periods if need be. I need those revs to get sufficient power in the mountains at high altitude.

    I think you can run a TD engine at 3500 until the end of time. That seems to be a reasonable speed for them. One rule of thumb for max sustained engine speed is 2500 feet of piston travel per minute. 2500 fpm = 30,000 inches/ min divided by 7 inches (3.5 inch stroke x2 per revolution) = 4285 rpm. Thus 3500 rpm is running about 82% of max cruise speed and is not flogging the engine. Others suggest that running an engine at 75% of max rated speed is OK, and that would be 5500 rpm x .75 = 4125 rpm.

     

    TC transmission & rear axle ratio

    My concern is that the tranny is beginning to be somewhat noisy in top gear, most especially under light load, constant speed--level ground conditions (ie. neither accelerating nor coasting / deccelerating). It's not too noisy when under load or deccelerating in top gear, and reasonably quiet in the lower gears. My questions are these: 1. Assuming that an overhaul of the tranny is indicated, which parts are the most likely to need replacement ? 2. After 46 years as Betsy's chief mechanic, I feel I'm reasonably proficient as a mechanic, but I have never unbuttoned a tranny. Am I biting off more than I can chew to attempt an overhaul on my own? 3. I'm seriously considering fitting a lower-ratio rear axle to get more relaxed cruising. Betsy's engine has been brought up to MK2 TD or TF specs., and has an over-bore of 40thou., and she's running 4.50x19" wheels. What ratio would be the best compromise?

    A number of folks who seem to know what they're talking about, e.g., Skip Kelsey, swear by Redline synthetic fluid for the transmission. You might drop Skip a line <kelsey@value.net and see what he has to say. I put a set of MGA 4.30 gears in my TD a short while ago and I think its the best thing I've done to the car. Makes driving on today's highways a lot safer. The real guru on the topic is Carl Cederstrand, he wrote the book on the subject; <cederstrand@earthlink.net .

    I'm like you, scared of gearboxes but the boys tell me they are a piece of cake, you just have to dive in. I'll comment on No. 3: If I were you, I would wait until I got Betsy home before changing your diff ratio. While in England try your best to stay off the Motorways and on the A and B roads, there you will find the original set up just perfect and the scenery is better too. While you are in England, you might consider buzzing by Roger Furneaux's and picking up a new ring and pinion gear set. Roger has had them remade in I think 4.6/1. I run a 4.55/1 Morris diff in my TA and find it works very well out here on the freeways. Rogers ratio is a good compromise and the Morris diffs are getting very hard to find.

    Don't forget that the TC already runs lower RPM per MPH because of the larger tire diameter (The rear end ratio is the same). We TD owners have to modify our differentials just to get our cruising RPM down to where the TC already runs.

     

    Rear axle

     

    TD differential oil

    For the diff. in the TD, use SAE 90 hypoid only. It should clearly state this. In the transmission get some Redline MTL SAE 75/90. This is a synthetic oil that is made specificaly for manual transmissions. It lubes better and cooler. Modern Hypoid oil is not designed for transmissions containing brass parts. And will attack your syncros if gotten to a prescribed temerature.

    I'll take a shot at your questions, first 90w120 is a multi-viscosity gear oil which is fine for all T type rear ends and transmissions. I use 90-140. Remember do not over fill the rear end, by that I mean do not fill to the top of the filler plug hole, just to the level plug.

     

    MG TD -- rear axle seals

    I am hoping that someone out there can give me advice about resealing the rear axle on a TD. I'm not a newbie at this sort of thing, but I figure some people may have developed some improvements on the original design.

    The oil was running down the shafts and getting on the brakes -- it did not seem to be leaking at the lip seals. Since there is no inner seal, it appears that the tapered collet-looking thing that butts up against the bearing is supposed to do this job. I guess the metal-to-metal contact against the bearing was meant to stop the oil.

    My plan at this point is to smooth the end of the tapered piece (which had some wear), and then to put a modern, plastic sealer like Hylomar, Curil, or Loctite Gasket Eliminator between it and the bearing. Anyone have a better idea?

     

    TD rear axle seals are leaking

    My TD rear axle seals are leaking, at 18 months and 4000 miles, as did the seals before them. What advice can anyone offer to help ensure that the new seals do not leak? Also, are any brake cleaners noticeably better, or worse, than others for attempting to save the rear brake shoes? Thanks in advance,

    Odds are that the oil leak is caused by a blocked vent hold in the axle housing. Somehow pressure builds up inside the axle housing as you drive and the seals aren't made to withstand any pressure. Opening up the hole may cure the problem. The hole is located on top of the left axle tube about 1 to 2 inches outboard from the main center casting. It's about 1/8 to 3/32" dia hole but an ice pick or piece of coat hanger wire will do the job. It's probably covered over with grease and dirt. Wipe away as much dirt, etc. as you can before poking to minimize the amount that gets punched through. On brake cleaner, I've had very good results with a spray can product called CRC Brakleen made by CRC Industries in Warminster, Pa. . I bought mine at a local auto parts store and is probably available anywhere.

     

    TD Rear Axle Oil Seal Question

    I think my TD needs new rear axle oil seals. How big a job is this? Do you have to drain the oil from the differential first?

    it's not too daunting a task. Drain the axle oil, remove the wheels, brake drums & shoes. Disconnect the brake pipes from the wheel cylinders. Remove the backing plates. Take a hammer and chisel and tap the bearing holder a few degrees clockwise so you can get at the back of it, then tap against that exposed flange to withdraw the bearing holder. Sometimes the bearing sticks in the holder, so the axle and bearing come out as well. Press the bearing and holder off the axle, then the bearing out of the holder. This exposes the seal, which you can then remove and install a new one. Reassembly, as the workshop manual always says, is the reverse of the above procedure, but you'll also have to bleed the rear brakes after reconnecting the pipes. And don't forget to add fresh oil to the differential...

     

    Rear Axle Oil Seal Replacement on TD

    Does the flange (SPACER, rear hub bearing) that holds the oil seal need some sort of sealant between it's face and the rear end housing? The manual doesn't show a gasket here, but I think there was oil seeping through this joint. (But maybe this oil first had to get though the seal.) I don't quit understand how all this works yet.

    A very thin (read VERY thin) smear of silicone sealer on the face helps fill all those slight machining imperfections and prevent the future seepage of oil.

     

    Broken TD half shaft

    I knew it was to good to be true. Got 15 miles from home in the TD, stopped at an intersection and it would not go. No big noise, shifted in gear, let out the clutch and it did not go, of course this was a major intersection. I pushed it off to the side of the road, checked the clutch linkage, that had previously fallen out after the loss of a clevis pin, it was working, care would go in and out of gear but was not getting any power to the rear wheels. What gave out? An axle? The rear diff? How can I troubleshoot with out taking it all apart?

    Wellll, lets see ... I can think of 3 things to say right off-the-bat.

    1) is it really going into gear? ... ie, is the shift linkage broken? 2) Is the clutch stuck? ...ie, is the clutch not re-engaging when the pedal is released? sometimes you can look (with a flashlight) through the opening where the clutch fork goes into the bell housing and see enough of the clutch/pressure plate to determine if its working ... use a helper to push and release the clutch pedal while you watch 3) I'd guess its likely not the axle/diff ... raise the rear of the car so that the wheels are off of the ground, start the car and have a helper put it "in gear" and let out on the clutch . if the driveshaft is turning, the problem is in the axle/diff, if it isn't, the problem is in the trans/clutch.

    TDs are renowned for breaking half shafts. When this happens, the symptoms are exactly as you described.

    To check, jack the car up at the rear. Release the handbrake and put the car out of gear. Have an assistant hold one rear wheel still while you rotate the other one. The driveshaft should turn as you rotate the wheel. If you can rotate one wheel without the driveshaft turning, the half-shaft that side is broken.

    Start the engine, shift into first gear, and let out the clutch. Does the speedometer register speed even though you're standing still? If so, you've probably broken a half-shaft in the rear axle. It's a common T-Type problem.

     

    Broken half-shaft

    Another tool for extracting a broken half-shaft when the break is in the differential is as follows:

    Get a 3 foot 1/4 inch dia steel rod. Grind about 10 inches of it down to a 1/8 inch square rod. Make a small bend an inch from the end. Pull the half shaft from the other side and insert the tool. Give it a whack with a hammer and the broken 2 inch piece will come out like a bullet.

    I know it works 'cause I've done it. I carry a spare half shaft with a bearing pressd on in my spares kit.

     

    Old vs New Rear Half Axles

    How do I determine if I have OEM or replacement rear half axles in my '51 TD? By the external nut threads? Moss half shafts now have SAE threads. When was the switch made from BSF? Abingdon Spares doesn't say what threads they have. Are there any stampings or marks I could look for on the shafts?

    I have one half axle that says in blue "New Axle" so assume that is a replacement but it must have been installed prior to 1978 when the TD was restored.

    I'm told that "The new half shafts are bullet proof", therefore, if I can determine that I have new shafts, I will not have to purchase and carry a replacement, nor make an extraction tool, as long as I avoid jacket rabbit starts from dead still.

    I assume by "bullet proof" you mean the axles are so strong, that the drive train can't deliver enough torque to hurt them. This is great as one can accidentally slip off the clutch pedal and "squeal" the rear tires. This happens to me occasionally. First gear on the TD is so low that a "very brief" burst of torque can be delivered by "popping the clutch".

    BTW: If you have the "rod" style clutch linkage and your engine mounts are loosey-goosey, you can get uncontrollable clutch-popping. I had this situation at one time. Every time I started from a stand still, I either stalled the engine or squealed the tires!

    On page 44 of the T Series Handbook, it states that at car # "TD 12285 (Dec 10 1951 the wheel studs and nuts and all threaded fittings in the driveshaft and rear axle were changed from British Standard Fine (BSF) to Unified (UNF or SAE) threads." From this, it would appear that this change is not a Moss Motors inspired change.

     

    T series worn axle splines

    After eventually getting round to replacing the rear wheel bearings and axle seals on the TC I thought I'd finally have reliable, oil free, rear brakes for a while. Well, I did. For a very SHORT while. I've come to the conclusion that the problem is worn axle splines, right side in particular. The long term fix is obviously to replace the axle and bearing carrier and I plan on getting in touch with Phil Marino regarding his tapered shaft modification soon. BUT.....

    The Chief Financial Officer (Domestic) advises that this quarters budget for such items has already been depleted below a responsible level. In response the Engineering and Maintenance department has been looking for a short term fix. Anybody ever tried to seal this up with blue goo silicone? The CFO(D) has opined that this may be within the current feduciary restraints.

    Not sure what happens on a TC when the axle breaks (although I think the TC/TD is pretty similar to the MGA), but given the rash of TR3 wheels taking leave of their parent vehicles, I'd say consider deficit spending or else park it, especially if you racing the car! (or run the B-GT - when the axle breakes, the wheel stays put!

    The TA/TB/TC rear axle is an entirely different design from the TD/TF unit. A TA/TB/TC rear wheel won't come off if a half shaft breaks. A TD/TF rear wheel will.

     

    TF Rear Axle

    I pulled off one of the rear drums on the TF tonight to check the brake shoes to find that it was covered in oil. Since I've never had to do anywork on the rear axle of a car I thought I'd bounce it off the list. It looks like I need to remove what the workshop manual calls the 'Support-brake plate' or moss calls '226-380 Housing,bearing' to get access to the oil seal. Is there anything else that needs to be done or any gotchas that I should know about.

    You are on the right track.Remove the plate in question and lever out the seal. Very carefully tap in the new seal, with the lip facing inward. Then reassemble.

    For what it's worth, what seemed to cause the leak in the rear axle was that the bolts that hold the backing plate and the bearing assembly together had loosened up over the years.

     

    Axle Housing

    I've been working diligently on the TD for a month. Now is the time to look at the Diff axle housing. When I strip all the pieces away I find that the housing is badly grooved where the U-bolt spring clamps were.

    Is there any thing I can do to fix this. One is quite deep, almost 3/16". I don't understand why I didn't severe the axle in two when driving her. It is a very substantial groove. All the places where the u-bolts were are grooved but one is the worst.

    Anyone ever put a MGA axle housing under a T series? I have a complete one of those in great shape right now. I was going to transplant the ring and pinion into the TD diff. I also have the wheels as they are a 4 bolt. They even look the same and the hub caps will fit too.

    When I was where you apparently are in the restoration process, I filled in the grooves with a wide weld bead and then ground it down smooth. If you don't want to try that yourself, it should be a quick and inexpensive job for any welder. I believe the MGA has a buffer plate that protects the axle housing from abrading. You can make one easily from a sheet of metal.

    Moss sells a set of "buffer plates" that protect the axle from chaffing by the U-bolts. have had them on my TD for years. They're standard MGA parts.

    Yes it's been done for at least 25 years. A friend of mine did it in 1974 and many others have done the same. Remember, the A spring arch stands are slightly wider. Some have rewelded them. Rotate the backing plates 180 degrees for the hand brake cable. Remember the MGA brakes are larger and some complain about unequal front/rear braking. You will need to made an adapter if you ever need to use the spare (5 bolt rim) on the rear end. Most people will not count the vent holes but I think the MGA has 1 less than the TD/TF. There was an article by Chip Old in the TSO back in the '70's on this as it was a very easy method to convert a TD/TF to wire wheels by using MGA rears and fronts. Some have even put one MGA disks on the front

     

    Rear Axle Nut

    Okay, so I should have broken the rear axle nut loose before I went that far, but I was giving the PB Blaster some time to loosen up the castellated nut so I went forward. I stuck the prop shaft back in hoping that while in gear the prop shaft would keep the rear end locked -- but the clutch problem above !!! So how can I keep the rear axle from rotating when I try and loosen the nut ?? (tightening up the brakes doesn't give a positive enough hold).

    You need to buy or make a pin wrench. This is most easily done by drilling and tapping two holes in the end of a 3/4" angle iron about 3 feet long. Into these holes screw two bolts about 1 inch long which are spaced the same as two of the holes in the pinion drive flange. Use the pin wrench to hold the flange from turning and remove the nut with your socket wrench. This is not recommended, since it relieves the pre-load on the diff. And, you seem to want to break things loose at the clutch, not the diff.

    Now, the rear end - I need to remove the HUB/REAR AXLE NUT on the rear to gain access to the brake shoes, cylinders, check splines....and remove the backing plate for rebuilding. I guess I wasn't too clear on that earlier. I do NOT want to remove the pinion flange nut but DO want to remove the axle shaft nut - but the axle spins. I had planned on putting the car into gear and letting the engine stop the rear axle from rotating, but that's when the clutch confusion arose.

    From the posts and other e-mails I have received it seems a 'BIG STICK' approach is called for (wedge pipe/angle iron between/bolted to the wheel studs or a big screwdriver to stop rotation is the trick). Schach notes that these nut are torqued to 150ft. lbs (pg. 58) and I didn't want to mess anything up before I even get the bits into pieces. As a relative 'newbie' to this game I'm always a little gun-shy to press-on so much that I distort something that is not easily replaced.

    Big Gorilla needed. Most impacts running off home air systems do not generate more than 100 lbs.ft. If it does come off with home air system than the original torque was lower than the 150 in Schach's book.

     

    Transmission / axle: vibrations

     

    TD vibration

    Noticed a vibration somewhere in the driveline of my TD. You feel it at idle, revving the engine, in the seat of the pants. It seems as if it's in the frame. I believe it was there before the cam replacement, I just wasn't paying all that much attention. Now that the car's power has been restored and throttle response is so much better(minus one throttle-return spring), I am more aware of it. Any ideas? I replaced the front motor mount, too.

    Exhaust touch point on the chassis, spiggot bearing worn allowing the clutch plate to run off-centre, worn bearings in the gearbox, fan blade missing, ( once saw one that had gone up INTO the bonnet after shearing off...) Water pump bearings worn,( rock the fan...expensive,) First signs of worn main bearings.....is the oil pressure good with a very hot engine, at idle?

    You say you have fitted a new engine mounting? Often the modern rubber is very HARD, and simply transmits more vibration, very true of the front one. The old rubber was probably very soggy, absorbing it.

    Is the gearbox sitting on its cross-tube, again touching the chassis? New mountings needed if so.

    Is the gearbox steady still there? A tiny eye-bolt facing down, with a nut, a steel cup, and a RUBBER WASHER, to stop the gearbox lifting.

    After I replaced the rear engine mounts in my TD, a vibration was suddenly missing. My guess is that it was there for so long that I had become accustomed to it, but its absence is certainly nice. The rubber bushings on the engine stabiliser bar don't last very long either, if the rocker cover gasket leaks oil on them. (not that this would ever happen in a TD). If they perish, engine vibration can move into the chassis

    FWIW, I had a similar situation with my TD last year. Eventually, I traced the cause to a loose connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipe. One of the brass nuts had decided to disappear.

     

    Shaking TD

    My '53 TD has started to vibrate at 60+mph. Shocks were rebuilt about 6,000 miles ago--is that all a rebuild lasts? Wheels were balanced 1,000 miles ago. Do the dampers need to be "topped off"? Any ideas?

    When in doubt, check the dampers. It's not unknown for a rebuilt damper to leak. You might also swap the tires around to see if the vibration changes. Wheels do lose weights, occasionally. Can you identify the location of vibration? Universal joints can vibrate too, as they wear out.

    Check the universals and front and rear motor mounts.

    U-Joints!

    I've been through a number of these issues on a number of member's TDs. Everything I've ever tried helped so some extent: shocks, u-joints, tie rods and ends, king pins, wheel balance (balance on the car is MOST important). But universally, the most dramatic improvement has been when the straightest wheels are moved to the front. Unfortunately, no one is making new TD wheels and the old wheels are usually quite soft, so if you can't get the wheels straightened, go fo the best two on the front.

    I had this problem on my TF, leading me to rebuild the entire front suspension, incrementally, to no avail. What fixed it was changing tires (not front to rear -- tried that) to new tires with a different tread. (That means I have some barely used 1.55/15 Goodriches to sell, but not in good conscience.)

     

    My TD has the Shakes

    My TD starts to shake around 55 mph. (The shaking gets so bad from there, that I really can't go faster than 55.) The tires were new and balanced about 5 years ago. I'll have them balanced again, but what should I do if that doesn't help? The car has new bushes and springs. Everything in the suspension seems nice and tight.

    Are (the new bushes and springs) these still tight? In other words check the axle U bolts and shackle bolts. Also make sure that you've got the differential U joints alligned correctly.

    Rotate the tires front to rear. It shouldn't make any difference, but just in case the tire shop didn't do their job or didn't notice tire defects.

    Also check for play in the front king pins and the trunions.

    Check your U joints in the prop shaft as well as the u joints holding the springs to the rear axle housing

    When you have the balance checked on your tires, have the shop check for a bent or out of round wheel. I found that I had two wheels that were bent. Once the wheels were straightened, the shaking went away.

    I had the tires balanced, but it didn't help. The tires are radials, and five years old. (I just recently got the engine running well enough to get the car up to highway speed.). Also, the drive shaft U-joints are aligned correctly. New springs, new bushes, new shocks and everything seems nice and tight.

    Here's what I've observed driving:

    It seems like I can "sneak up" on highway speed. When I initially get up to 55 or 60 mph, there is no vibration. Then it slowly starts and builds until I'm forced to slow down. Also, all the vibration seems to be coming from the front end of the car. No matter which wheels are on which drums, it's always the front of the car that's hopping around. I feel very little in the seat of my pants (which is close to the rear axel), but the dash and steering wheel shake badly. I can actually see the front fenders bouncing up and down.

    My new theory:

    When I installed the new shocks, I remember remarking how stiff the lever on the rear ones were compared to the fronts. The fronts seemed very wimpy to me, but they were new and I'm a novice, so I thought "Well maybe that's the way they're supposed to be". Now I'm thinking maybe that's my problem. Should the front shock levers have as much resistance as the rears? Can bad shocks make the car shake? I've learned the hard way that you can't always trust the new/rebuilt parts the vendors send you!

    Bad dampers allow the wheels to bounce, so can permit quite a lot of action. Try bouncing the car by pushing the bumper and see if the car rises and falls when you remove your hands and stop the bouncing. Bumper should return to rest position but not pass it if damper is working OK. From the workshop manual: Damper settings for fronts: Rebound-20 degrees/sec @ 400 lb/inch torque at temperature of 18C (65F) Compression-20 degrees/sec @ 200 lb/inch (weight applied at end of 8 inch arm = 50 and 25 lbs respectively Damper setting for rears: Rebound-20 degrees/sec @ 400 lb/inch torque Compression-20 degrees/sec @ 250 lb/inch (weight applied at end of 6 inch arm = 66lb 11oz and 41 lb 11oz respectively.

    This is from the table in section L.4.

    Background:

    Car was in storage for long period. I've been restoring it over the past six years. Just recently got the engine running well enough to discover the highway shake.

    New springs, new bushes, new shocks and everything seems nice and tight.

    Tires are 6 year old Michelin XZX 165SR15s radials.

    So far:

    I had the tires re-balanced, but it didn't help.

    Checked U-joints, they're aligned correctly. No excessive play.

    Tried playing with tire pressure, no dice.

    Thought my front shocks were too loose, so I tried some thick fork oil. It did indeed stiffen the shocks. It reduced the violence of the shake, but the shake's still there.

    Checked the toe-in. It's right on the money.

    Car still shakes going down hill in neutral, so it's not the engine.

    Here's what I've observed driving:

    It seems like I can "sneak up" on highway speed. When I initially get up to 55 or 60 mph, there is no vibration. Then it slowly starts and builds until I'm forced to slow down. Also, all the vibration seems to be coming from the front end of the car. No matter which wheels are on which drums, it's always the front of the car that's hopping around. I feel very little in the seat of my pants (which is close to the rear axel), but the dash and steering wheel shake badly. I can actually see the front fenders bouncing up and down.

    What to try next?

    Can shops still balance wheels on the car? Thought I'd try that, the vibration feels like it's in the front wheels,

    Should I take a chance and buy new tires? A fellow in the club claims his shakes were cured by going to bias ply tires.

    I know it's a long shot, but a guy that I was stationed with in Texas a LONG time ago was having a similiar problem with his XKE Jag. Turned out he had water in one of his tires. I guess you would have found that out though. I've been watching this thread and that is one of the first things that came to my mind.(and it's lonely up there!) Dismount the wheel, then shake it. You will hear water sloshing inside the tire. The balancing tech should have heard it, but you can check for it again.

    Was the car standing on these tyres, undriven, for long periods? If so, they may not be round anymore. A few years ago I had a car that felt like it had square wheels for the first few kilometres from cold - apparently those particular tyres developed flats overnight!

    If this was the case, new tyres would help, but I'd stay with radials: I can't see that cross-plies would be any better.

    The effect would be worse at the front, because the rear wheels are attached to a heavy, rigid axle which would damp the movement.

    Try jacking the front and look for ovality in the tyres.

    Even though you had them balanced, it might still be the old tires---try this: Jack the car and put a pencil against the tread. See if the tire is round (tread is equal distance from the pencil as wheel rotates). Then see if it and the wheel are straight (sidewall is equal distance from pencil as wheel rotates). It is possible for a tire to be in balance but not round. Forget the advice to switch to bias ply tires. I did it, seeking authenticity of 1950's appearing Firestones. Bad move. Tire tech has improved so incredibly in 50 years that even the cheapest radial is superior to the bias ply repros. Whatever, it's not the bias vs radial issue that is causing vibration. Many hundreds of TDs are running just fine on radials.

    I went through a somewhat similar situation when I finally got my TD on the road. What it came down to was that the tubes were slightly too large for the tires (tires were 165x15, tubes were genericx15). I installed a set of Moss' 452-755 and the problems disappeared.

    I just had new tires put on, and she still shakes. I guess this officially makes rims the problem. The boys at the tire shop think they're bent. I realise TD rims are made of "unobtainium". What are my options?

    Get them straightened. Most metropolitan areas have at least one wheel repair service that can do the job.

    Check the rims yourself before you buy new ones. Use the pencil on a block method. Somewhere I read that 1/8 inch side-to-side is OK, but I don't know what is acceptable up-and-down. Another idea--the metal is pretty soft. Perhaps, if they bent once, they could be straightened. If you find that they are bent, call around to see if there is a shop that can do it.

    You mentioned earlier that you had topped off the dampers. If they were quite low on fluid, they might have contained an air bubble that has since worked its way to the top. You might check them again.

    I think one of my U-joints are failing the criteria below. There is some play, maybe 1/32 to 1/16", and there is definite polishing. I've never ventured into U-joint territory before. Do I need to order anything besides Moss 268-060 (U-JOINT)? Any special tools required?

    U-joint repair can be done by the home mechanic, but there is an art to drifting out the bearing cups, and pressing in the new ones. If the TD manual doesn't detail it, usually a Haynes or Chilton manual will. U-joints are almost all the same from car to car (different mfgs.) with the exception of the location of the clips, so if you have a manual around from another rear wheel drive vehicle, study the drawings/photos and the process. Rather than try to detail the process here, study up and go for it. A couple of tips: I use a pretty good size ball pein hammer and an old socket that clears the cup size for removal. For pressing the new cups in, a bench vise with large enough capacity is fine. If there is an experienced person to guide you on the first one, all the better.

    I use an oversize socket for one side of the yoke and a undersized socket on the other side and then press one side out at a time with a vice (I now have a 6 ton hydraulic press to do it with the next time). Reassembly is just the reverse.

     

     

    Clutch

     

    Late TD Clutch replacement

    Does anyone know of a replacement diaphragm pressure plate that fits a late TD rather than the spring variety? I am told that clutch judder may be eliminated by this installation. I assume the stock clutch disc and throwout bearing stays the same? My TD uses the 8" type.

    I don't know of a diaphragm pressure plate that fits the late TD, but I know from experience that a common source of clutch judder in the TD is a worn/broken rear mount (transmision mount). There was a tech tip in 'The Sacred Octagon' regarding repairing this problem within the lasst year. In a '53 that I owned back in the 60s replacing the rubber in the mount cured a bad csse of judder, without touching the clutch.

     

    TD Clutch Question

    Since I have have completed my TD restoration, I' ve had problems adjusting the clutch linkage so the transmission fully disengages when the clutch pedal is depressed. The TD is an early TD which should have a clutch cable but the PO replaced the cable with the solid clutch rod found in later TDs. Are the clutch rod and the clutch cable interchangeable? Is the same clutch link used in both early and late TDs? I ask because it seems as if the PO used a "customized" (read "homemade") clutch link. It acts as if the "customized" clutch link isn't long enough to disengage the clutch

    I have run into this problem many times. I feel that it has something to do with the settings on the pressure plate when made, I'm not sure. The fix for it has been to take the clutch link.( thicker of the two rods) and cut it in two. splice in a 1/2in. piece, making the rod 1/2 inch longer. For some reason this fixes it. I changes the geometry.

    My TD (10855) is from the cable days. When I replaced the Volvo engine with a late '53 engine (#28839), I decided to use the rod system. The standard link has worked fine for me. The Abingdon Spares parts list gives a better indication of which parts are different among the two systems than does the Moss catalog.

    It appears in the workshop manual and in the parts book that they are interchangable, and that the only differences are the rods vs the cable. The cable-cars had a stop somewhere in the system so that the pedal wouldn't go down too far. I forget where it is/was, though, yet wonder if it might be preventing the pedal from moving far enough to give proper clearance. If there is excessive slack in all the forks and pins, and the pivot on the sump, a lot of pedal movement will be consumed before the movement gets to the clutch. 1/16" here and 1/8" there adds to about 1/2" easily. I had about 5/8" slack in my TD, couldn't get a proper clutch disengagment, and didn't know what was wrong until Schach's book suggested the repair.

    If you have a brass cable anchor on your oil pan, a cable will be easy to (re)install. I prefer the cable to the rod because it is easy to bend the threaded end of the rod if you push the pedal in too far. One thing you might watch for is severe wear on the clevis pins and secondary link. This can loosen the linkage a lot and prevent proper disengagement. All of the bits are readily available from Abingdon.

     

    TD Clutch Slipping

    This weekend I took the TD out for the first time since Watkins Glen and I noticed that the clutch was slipping. Does that mean I need a new one? Anyone have any experience replacing a TD clutch? Is this a do-it-yourself project? Any advice would be appreciated.

    Sounds as though you got oil on the disc. Fear not, changing a clutch in a TD is simple............

    Remove the seats and transmission tunnel, disconnect the driveshaft from the rear gearbox flange, undo the rear motor mount. Place a jack under the rear of the oil pan (protecting the latter with a piece of plywood) to support its weight. Undo the bolts that hold the gearbox to the engine. Remove the clutch assembly from the flywheel. Clean up any oil film you see, fit a new clutch (you'll need a pilot tool to center the disc) then, as they say in the manuals, reassembly is the reverse of the above procedure.

    If this seems like a lot of work, pity the B and Midget owners who have to remove the engine to do a clutch change! I've done a TD in three hours, never bettered five for a B..........

    I put in a new clutch this April, as part of the rebuilding of the engine. It is a DIY job. You can approach it two ways, removing the engine or removing the gearbox. While I removed the engine, and would probably do it that way again, a recent visit to a repair shop revealed a TD that was getting a new clutch by means of the gearbox being removed. Shop owner says that's the easier way and recommends doing it that way. Moss was not carrying the TD clutch (TD2 clutch) when I ordered, so substituted the MGA clutch. It works fine, though the pedal pressure may be a bit greater. Either way, engine or trans removed, you will need to remove the trans tunnel, which is the worst part of the job. Try to keep track of the bolts as you remove them. My car had bolts of at least three different lengths. If you put the car is up on jackstands, keep it there until the trans tunnel is back in place. The flexing of the chassis makes reinstallation of the tunnel difficult if the car is taken off the stands.

    Also agree. However, be SURE to support rear of block. I use a specially cut 4 x 4. If you jack the tranny (after it's mount is loose) a TINY bit ( remember the fan will get close to radiator!!) You can just geta support in there. Then its a snap.

     

    TD clutch

    How can you tell when the clutch is adjusted correctly or if it isn't adjusted correctly. When starting out in reverse I get a "judder" as I pull away. After a run I smell a faint hint of hot fabric/clutch plate?

    The only clutch adjustment you can control is the clearance between the throwout bearing and the pressure plate. You can't measure that clearance directly (because it's inside the bell housing), so instead you measure the amount of free movement at the clutch pedal. That should by 3/4 inch. If not, adjust the linkage until it is.

    If what you smell really is the clutch, then the clutch may be slipping. When going up a hill, punch down on the accelerator pedal. Does the engine rev up without the car actually accelerating? That's a classic symptom of clutch slippage. It could indicate gross misadjustment of the linkage, but it's more likely to indicate a worn out clutch.

    However on the TD & TF judder in reverse usually doesn't indicate a clutch problem. It's more likely to be caused by badly deteriorated engine and gearbox mounts (especially the gearbox mount). Examine the mounting rubbers. If they are soft and spongey, replace them.

    Crawl under the gearbox and look at the underside of the gearbox mount assembly. You should see a threaded rod poking down through the bearer plate (bolted to the chassis and supporting the rear mount. Is there a nut, steel washer, and rubber rebound washer on that rod? If not, the gearbox can bounce around on the mount, causing the "judder in reverse" symptom.

    The upper end of that rod is a clevis (a fork). The clevis is attached via a clevis pin to a tab that is part of the gearbox tail housing casting. Lift the rear of the gearbox slightly with a jack. If the rod doesn't move upward with the gearbox, then either the clevis pin has sheared or (worst case scenario) the tab has broken off of the tail housing.

    Assuming the clevis, clevis pin, tab, nut, and washers are all intact, don't be tempted to tighten the nut too much. The purpose of the clevis assembly to control rebound, not to pull the gearbox down tight into the mounting rubbers. The nut should be tightened only enough to pinch the rubber rebound washer slightly. Over-tightening can break the cast iron tab mentioned earlier. So can under-tightening, because it lets the gearbox bang around too much in its mount, putting excessive strain on the cast iron tab.

     

    Fierce TD clutch

    Greetings all, our '52 TD clutch has been very touchy for as long as I can remember. I restored the car a couple years ago, after it had been resting for several years. Before (as I recall) and since the rebuild, the clutch has had a "hair trigger" response. It's almost impossible to make a standing start on any incline, making the car rather unpleasant to drive much... I've checked the motor mounts, they SEEM fine. It originally had a cable actuated clutch, now has a rod actuation. Any suggestions?

    Had similar problem with a TF. Changed the motor mounts, (back one too) ,replaced the stablizer bar and went back to cable actuated. Problem went away.

    Your "cure" on the grabbing clutch in the TF... perhaps the thing simply has an extremely "heavy" pressure plate. You changed five searate items (3 engine mounts, a stabilizer rod, and the means of actuation), and I'll bet you *still* don't know what the *real* problem was!

    I'm not casting aspersions here, I'm merely trying to point out that a "shotgun" approach to fixing something is not only imprecise, but quite often unnecessarily expensive. In the case of the two MG clutches, my sympathies...conversions are always difficult to deal with, especially when a previous owner may well have bodgered the whole thing. In the case of a cable having been replaced by a rod, if there was no provision made for later adjustment, then I would instantly become quite suspicious of the entire car, and quite carefully look for signs of other "improvements"!

    A clutch, by design, is intended to wear over a period of time; if no provision is made to compensate for this wear, then the person making the modification is either a supreme optimist, or knows nothing whatsoever about machinery, and everything that he has touched must be viewed with suspicion.

    As an aside...if a change *must* be made, then why not switch to a hydraulic clutch; a far superior means of actuation to either rods or cables? No, it's *not* original...but what is more important; originality or *enjoying* our old cars? A car that isn't fun to drive isn't really much of a pleasure to own, is it? (I just *know* I'm going to hear from JH on this one!!)

    Of course your right, and I don't know what was really wrong, but all these items were in bad shape and needed replacement anyway. Perhaps each contributed to the problem, but since most of us only repair what is broken or may be broken, only a given problem sparks the repair and replacement of parts that are usually passed over, but are in need of repair ,especially in a 50 year old car,

    I restored the car a couple years ago, after it had been resting for several years. Before (as I recall) and since the rebuild, the clutch has had a "hair trigger" response.

    What did you replace in the "restoration"? Did you replace the clutch center (driven) plate with a NEW one? If the springs are worn (ie loose feeling) or broken then the clutch will judder. The springs are in the center of the plate to take up the shock of engaging the clutch and damp out the vibrations which become judder and then a grab. Worn engine mounts and (on the TD) a sloppy stabilizer bar all contribute to the amplification. A cable connection helps to provide isolation from a jerking engine so that a judder does not get passed on to the foot and become "positive feedback".

     

    TD clutch adjustment

    how do I tell when I have 3/4" of free pedal movement? My pedal seems to have more than that.

    You go by feel. As you depress the clutch pedal, the first resistance you should feel is the clutch pedal return spring. If it the pedal just sort of flops around, it may be that the return spring has come loose or is broken. As you push the pedal farther, you should hit a point of greater resistance to your force. That's when the linkage is pushing the throwout bearing against the plate in the clutch pressure plate assembly. The distance the pedal travels between the "at rest" position to the point of increased resistance is called the free play and should be about 3/4". The adjustment is necessary to assure that the clutch pressure plate is not partially released against the clutch disc which would allow it to slip and cause it to wear faster.

     

    TD clutch rod

    Does anyone have a picture showing a clutch rod assembly? How does the rod attach to the pedal? Moss catalogue and Blowers do not show how it hooks up.

    The rod attaches from the fulcrum lever on the sump to the clutch.

    In the Moss catalog MGT-24, check the drawings on p.13. Assuming that you have a LHD car, pin 50 fits through the clevis on the end of rod 37 and through the hole in the lever end of pedal shaft 22. A cotter pin holds pin 50 in place. If you have a RHD, let me know. It's a little different.

     

    TD Clutch Linkage

    Have you checked the mechanical linkage? Wear (ovalling) of the holes in the clutch push rod or the pedal and/or wear of the clevis pin can easily add up to loss of sufficient travel to activate the clutch. Know that, been there!

    I missed the original post on this. Is this about the clutch linkage on a TD? I think I also have this problem. I heard that a quick fix for this was to shorten one of the link rods. Does anybody know about this? Also, how about converting to the early cable linkage as a fix?

    Last spring I went through the job of filling all the holes and re-drilling to fit the new clevis pins. It made a big difference. Before starting the project, I talked to a couple of guys about using the cable and modifying the rods. The only one who liked the cable is a repair professional to whom I have never gone for service. Nobody liked the idea of modifying the rods. All thought that the system worked pretty well as designed, and recommended repairing the rods. One wonders why MG discontinued the cable in favor of the rods and pivots. It seems to work OK on the cars that I have driven, MG built 20+ thousand TDs before changing, and there sure is a lot less machinery hanging out there in the oil, water, salt and dirt. To do the job 100% it's necessary to fill and drill the hole on the clutch lever at the bell housing. I did not have the energy left to remove that, but I did all the other pivots, including removign the sump so that that pivot could be swapped to the other side. It looks as though it should be tapped into the thick aluminium, but it has a nut on the inside. I thought that while at it I should change the bushings in the chassis. Turned out to be a miserable job, and the change made no difference in pedal feel. OTOH, we learned about that pedal grease nipple in 1954 or so, thus this pedal shaft has always been greased regularly. Unless the shaft is really floppy, I would recommend avoiding that job unless the floorboards are out or the body off the car.

    Thanks for the info. Another thing I'm wondering about is how the clutch linkage should be lubed. The rod style linkage has several exposed bearing points. Can anybody recommend a lubricant that won't wash off easily? Maybe the reason for those oblong holes was a lack of lubrication in the first place. Must be hell for a mechanism living underneath the chassis.

    My thought is that the holes wore oblong _because_ of the lubrication, not for lack of it. The primary lubrication seems to be engine oil drip and crankcase blow-by. When I took them apart, all the joints were plenty wet with oil. Unfortunately, and what I think is the problem, is that the oil attracts and holds all the abrasives that are kicked up by the front wheels. What I am doing now is to give them an occasional blast with a silicone spray, hoping to avoid the stickiness of oil. I found that the rubber front cup on the master cylinder will fit into the hole at the front of the pedal box, and act as something of a dirt excluder. I drilled the plastic cap of a 35mm film container and slid it onto the rod also, as a baffle against the dirt. Additionally, the bottom hole in the pedal box will accept the rubber plug that is in the floor pan on the driver's side.

     

    TD Clutch Linkage

    I thought i was going to be doing something simple on the car today but as usual things haven't turned out as planned.

    I'm connecting the clutch linkage and have a couple of questions. I have welded up the holes in the clutch link and the lever and redrilled back to the proper size. I have purchased a new clutch rod because the old one had been mangled and repaired several times. With all of the rods connected the lever (on the oil pan) points to the 6:00 position. According to Horst Schach's manual it should be pointing to the 8:00 position to be most effective. I don't believe I'm getting full travel of the pedal. It looks like the clutch link is too short. Mine measures 14 inches between the center of the clevis pin holes. It looks like it should be about 3/8" longer. Can someone possible measure their and let me know the proper length? Also where does the spring attach to the lever? I forgot to mention that my TD's original push rod for the clutch measures 14 inches center to center on the holes as best as I can measure it.

    The lever on my TD, all factory parts here, is more in the 7:00 position. I have no problems with it disengaging. If you will look at page E4 of the factory shop manual you will see that the lever is supposed to have a small hole between the two fulcrum pin holes and the spring slips into that small hole. It also shows the lever more in the 7:00-7:30 position. Although Horst's book is helpful, it does contain mistakes, and you should use the shop manual as your primary reference if possible.

    According to an excellent article by Carl Cederstrand a couple of years ago, he points out that the clutch adjustment link should be extended by about 5/8".

    A subsequent letter by Bill Link of the California MG T-Register points out an easy way to elongate:

    1) Saw off about two inches from one end of the adjustment tube. 2) Stick a piece of rod into the tube positioning the cut ends about 5/8" apart and weld the rod to the tube ends. 3) Keep the two clevises at the end of the link in the same plane.

    Here are a couple of Carl's paragraphs from the article on elongating the clutch connecting rod (diagram references not included):

    "The connecting rod that actuates the clutch is too short. When the clutch linkage is adjusted correctly, the clutch adjusting nut is generally screwed in to the end of its adjustment. Many times it will bottom out against the hex. Worse than that, the front lever is now in such an extreme clockwise position (RHD vehicle) that it bends the threaded rod. The bending occurs when the clutch pedal is depressed and the lever is thus required to rotate further clockwise. The nut and rod interfere with the lever. Phooey! Elongating the connecting rod, sat 5/8", moves the adjusting nut out toward the center of its adjustment range -- cheers! It also rotates the lever counterclockwise to a position where it can no longer interfere with the threaded rod."

    "This "end of adjustment' problem can occur with both the cable and rod mechanisms. Whether it occurs, and how bad it is depends upon the tolerance build up in the clutch linkage. The drawing in the factory Workshop Manual displays a nicely adjusted linkage. Notice how the lever and its adjusting nut are somewhere near the center of their adjusting range -- cheers. Unfortunately, this desirable condition is seldom (never) attained using factory supplied parts."

     

    Clutch Roller Bearings

    I am contemplating installing a Moss steel roller bearing in place of the standard carbon throw out bearing on my MGTD. However, I have heard rumors of problems with this conversion. I would be interested in any "stories" or experience, pro or con, that anyone has had with the metal bearings.

    Neither am I a fan of roller throw-out bearings for our cars. One installed in a friends TD lasted only a few months. Nothing wrong with the original carbon T/O bearing as long as the clutch return spring pulls it away from the clutch when not engaged. My TC carbon T/O bearing looks like new after 70,000 miles. Stick with the original and save your money.

    stay with the carbon clutch bearing.

    I installed a clutch throw-out ball bearing in my MG B/GT. I was attempting to "bullet-proof" the drive train. Two weeks later there was a great amount of noise when the clutch pedal was pressed. I removed the engine/trans and there was absolutely no sign of a throw-out bearing to be seen, no race, no balls or pieces......just metallic dust!!!!!!

     

    Spigot bushing driver

    Just about finished putting it all back together after a complete redo of the engine. Fired up easily, no funny noises, wonderful oil pressure, no smoke. Great! Now to take it out of the garage to run in the new camshaft/tappets. Ha Ha! Clutch won't disengage. I'm afraid that I ham-fisted the spigot bushing into the crankshaft. Next time I'll remember that the clutch alignment tool should slip readily into the bushing. Can anyone give me a lead toward a source of a good tool to use for driving in the bushing?.

    Pick up a set of bushing drivers at your local auto parts store or from Harbor Freight. There will be a correct sized driver in the set to handle the spigot bushing for you.

     

    Torque for pressure plate bolts

    Anybody care to venture a suggestion for torquing down the bolts that fasten the pressure plate (8") to flywheel?

    W.K.F. Woods book says 32 lbs./ft. The MGA Workshop manual says 25 lbs./ft. A MGA clutch cover will fit the TD as I have one in my TD. They have heavier pressure springs.

    These are 8x1.00 mm bolts. A grade ten 8 mm bolt is normally torqued to 22 lbs./ft. and grade 12 is 27 lb./ft.

    If it were me and I were using the original bolts, then I'd stick with the MGA recommendation of 25 lbs./ft.

     

    Cluch, restoration

    Prior to removal, the clutch pedal depressed and returned to full upright (despite the absence of the return spring, which I found missing when I compared my pieces to the Workshop manual). After pedal removal, the clutch shaft in the bottom of the bell housing just sort of flops back and forth. When I look inside the inspection cover, I can see the release bearing move back and forth, but shouldn't the clutch cover return rearward too ? Is this an indication that the clutch plate is frozen to the facce of the flywheel ? If so, how can I get it 'unstuck' (drop the tranny and clutch ??) I've read about driving in 2nd gear and mashing on the brakes to break it loose, but that won'e at this point. Honest, the clutch seemed to work before !

    Yes. The plate against which the release bearing bears, should show some slight movement when free. I would believe either the clutch disk is frozen or the clutch bearing mechanism is frozen.

    Again, I recommend you remove the clutch and transmission from the engine and inspect everything. The problem and solution is likely to be obvious.

    I wouldn't even consider reassembling the car without disassembling these parts and having a good look. No doubt you'll be able to see the problem and solve it. Otherwise we're just speculating.

     

     

    Steering / Shocks

     

    Steering box ++

     

    Steering rack lubrication on TD

    During the rebuild of my TD I started disassambling the steering rack. Not that

    it is that worn but to derust it. But in the books I found two different opinions on the lubrication of the assambly.

    1) according to several including manual I should use gear oil.

    2) according to the t type rest handbook (knudson) I could also use multi

    purpose grease.

    As Grease is far more easy to handle than gear oil (not that messy) and getting

    the gear oil in place is not that simple I am thinking of using the grease.

    You can use either the gear oil or the grease. If yours has a grease fitting, I would probably go that way. I think that the choice depends partly on environmental conditions...grease works well in hot climates like ours...Louisiana.

    Listen to Dick Knudson! Gear oil is messy and dificult to get in with a special grease gun. I have rebuilt many TDs in the past 30 years and have always used grease.

    I noticed that in the handbook, but I also noticed that the MOSS MGB catalog warnes against using grease in the rack of the B. I figured there couldn't be that much difference between the B's rack and the T's rack, so I decided to stick with gear oil. I bought a separate grease gun just for the gear oil. The grease gun will only hold the oil temporarally, so I store it in a bucket and wrap plenty of paper towels around it when I am using it. Also note that the oil zirk on the T's rack does not have a one way valve on it. If it is filled above the zirk, the excess will leak out. (Just another puddle to keep the others company.) I cover the zirk with a piece of aluminum foil to keep dirt out, amazingly it seems to stay on.

    I believe that gear oil was originally specified but modern grease is fine. When I first got my TD I attempted to put gear oil in, as per original owners manual. It stayed in for about two minutes.

    For the past five years I have run it with grease in the rack and so far no problems.

     

    Steering Rack Lubrication

    I've been following the discussion about lubricating the steering rack of a TD. Admittedly the manual says to use oil, but I am in a dilemma. I would appreciate comments concerning the following passage in Richard Knudson's "The T Type Restoration Handbook" page 86:

    "Steering Rack: The original lube charts call for the use of gear oil in TD/TF/Y steering rack, but modern multi-purpose lithium grease works just as well and isn't nearly as messy."

    Knudson isn't the first person I have seen advocating using lithium grease instead of oil. What's the problem using grease?

    Dick didn't write that material. He just edited the book, pulling together Tech articles from TSO and other places. Some other guy wrote the technical articles. I forget his name... :-) (Nice tuch Chip)

    Anyway, you'll get lots of argument about oil versus grease in the steering rack. The advantage of oil is that it creeps into all the corners of the rack better than grease does, so is more likely to provide passable lubrication even if you don't use enough. On the other hand, grease will get into all the cracks and crevasses just fine *if* you pump plenty of it in. It has the advantages of not requiring a separate gun, and of staying in the rack instead of running out.

    If you have an oil gun or a bulk-load grease gun that you can put oil in, then use oil. If not, use grease. Either will do the job.

    Thanks for your thoughts on this on going controversy. There have been some VERY heated arguments in our local Register regarding the use of oil vs grease in the steering rack, with many people quoting you as having said that "grease should be used in place of oil". I was glad to see what your thoughts really are. I have long been on the oil side of the argument due to the metal to metal ball joints inside the rack. Having taken these ball joints apart, I could not see how grease can work it's way into these joints the way that oil is able to. I have also heard that the later midgets specify the use of grease in the rack and that modern cars don't use any lubricant. I don't know, but I would guess that these cars have a nylon or delron seat that the ball (for the ball joint) rides in and therefore do not require any lubricant. Regardless, I have seen cars with many years of running both with oil and grease being used with no signs of accelerated wear, so I would hazard a guess that it really doesn't matter what a person uses just as long as they are faithful about applying some kind of lubricant.

    I have long been on the oil side of the argument due to the metal to metal ball joints inside the rack. Having taken these ball joints apart, I could not see how grease can work it's way into these joints the way that oil is able to.

    Additionally, I don't think grease will work out into the boots very well. As the rack moves back and forth it can "pump" oil into the boots much better.

    With this great big flurry back-and-forth about "grease" or "oil", and "may" or "must", has anybody considered that grease is just oil that has been encapsulated

    In a soap lattice to keep it from running out of the joint and being lost? In over 40 years and well over 1000 TD&TFs through the door, I found that fewer than 10% showed signs of EVER having their rack lubed!

    I think it more important that it occasionally get SOMETHING rather than to worry

    about the medium. Modern lithium greases travel nearly as well as gear oil. Also, the motion being lubed is MUCH less and less "loaded" than elsewhere on the cars. The greases also have much better "cling" than oil so the interval can be longer, and (since the wear in the steering rack is almost totally due to dirt entry rather than running "dry") I believe you guys could better spend your time worrying about the condition of your rack boots than about what is "specified" for lubing the rack.

    Inspect the boots regularly

     

    Steering Assembly- how much oil

    I have rebuilt the rack and pinion assembly and need to know how much oil is supposed to go into a dry unit. I've looked every where and can't find the information.

    My TD workshop manual sez .4 liter of the recommended oil....

     

    TD steering box Lubrication

    The steering box has a grease type nipple but requires hypoy oil as its lubricant. The instructions in the same manual states ...apply grease gun filled with oil!!... to this point. Have you ever put hypoy oil into a grease gun? How does that work?? What do you do??

    Pushing oil into the rack is easy, .....if..... you can find a "bulk fill" greasegun. You may have to have the auto parts store order one for you. You put the hypoid oil in the gun and give a couple of strokes. Then you drain the unused oil out of the gun and put the gun into a plastic bag until next use. My experience has been that the oil will, in the time between rack lubrications, drain the hypoid oil, and the stuff really reeks.

    Check the following page on the web for how to build your own high-pressure oil gun for a nominal amount. This should oil the rack quite nicely.

    http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/oilgun/gunconvert.html

    It works, but it's messy, very messy. Next time I add oil, I'm going to try my little bottle cap pump device. The steering rack nipple has no spring loaded valve in it. (It's basically just a hole!) So it shouldn't take much pressure to inject oil in it.

    BTW: What oil are you guys using in the steering rack? I've been using smelly SAE 85W140 GL-5 gear oil. This is also what I've been putting in the rear end. I'm currently using Redline MTL in the tranny.

    Before someone suggest that I look in the shop manual, I just can't find "Duckham's Hypoid 90" at the local Wal Mart.

    Several years back, there was a mention in TSO of that ball in the steering rack nipple getting into the rack and causing the rack to jam. There is (or was) a ball and spring assembly in that nipple when it was new. So now that I've ruined your day, bringing you fear of instant rack lock-up, what will you be doing this weekend? Sorry.....but thought you should know about it.

    If you'll forgive a tip from a TR**mph web site, here's another option: a gun specifically designed for gear lube, and it should be readily available from Mercury (Marine, not the division of Ford).

    <http://www.vtr.org/maintain/trunnion-oil.html >

    Based on the applications that is what you should use. A hypoid gear oil in the differential, and a very heavy oil (hypoid) in the rack.

     

    TC steering box

    Just put a modified Datsun 1000 steering box into my TC before the weekend and drove it 500 miles around southern Australia during Saturday and Sunday. This is a major. reversible, bolt-on improvement...highly recommended.

    I have imported and sold about twenty of those TC steering box conversions over the past two years. Yes, you are right. They make a TC steer like a modern car. It drove so great that I started selling the units here in the States.

    Out here we fit a steering conversion using the steering box from a Datsun 120Y (Datsun (Nissan) 210. It was made around the mid to late 70's.). It will easily graft on to a TC steering column and the difference is unbelievable. It actually steers where you point the wheel.

     

    Steering pinion shaft seal

    I've diassembled and cleaned the steering rack and associated pinion shaft. My basket case 52 TD came with badly deteriorated rubber rack seal 'boots' and a missing seal on the pinion shaft and after a transcontinental trip I feared severe grit contamination of the steering rack.

    I have 2 questions: 1) There HAS to be a trick to installing the felt seal on the pinion shaft where it exits the housing. There is a groove there, and I tried putting the seal in first then inserting the pinion shaft - the fatter end of the shaft forces the seal out. I've tried inserting the seal from the 'top' after the shaft is installed - nope-- not enough clearance. I've tried placing the seal on the shaft then inserting the whole thing -nope--the passageway gets smaller and stops the seal from progressing. So.......what's the trick here ????

    2) What's the current thinking on oil vs. grease inside the rack ? I know that originally 90W oil was used, but numerous times grease was injected thru the nipple on the rack front. I've also read that once apart and cleaned, go with oil as this was the original configuration, but I also seem to remember a thread past stating modern greases are much superior. Is there a difference in steering resistance with grease

    Try soaking the felt seal for a few days in engine oil also make sure that the area where the seal fits and the passage ways leading to where the seal fits are clean, polished and lubricated. On the question of oil versus grease, oil wins every time. Grease is not "fluid " and will collect at the extreems of movement, usually away from where it is wanted, oil keeps moving. Do not forget to fit new seal boots and clips to keep the oil in.

    Page 86 of "The T Type Restoration Handbook", 1993 edition, states: "The original lube charts call for the use of gear oil in the TD/TF/Y steering rack, but modern multi-purpose lithium grease works jus as well and isn't as messy".

    Detractors will argure that the manual calls for oil and only oil should be used. They claim that the inside ends of the tie rod links don't get lubricated with grease.

    I suspect it doesn't make much difference because there are many cars running with grease and many with oil. I would use oil if everything is sealed well, but if the oil doesn't stay in, I'd go with the grease and not worry about it.

     

    Steering shaft bearing. (T series)

    Winter work continues on the TC as I ready her for a fast approaching spring season. Yesterday was a beautiful early spring day just made for top down touring. Naturally, the day before I'd pulled the carbs off to have them line bored. Today, thankfully, it's pouring.

    The top felt bearing on my TC's steering shaft, the bearing just below the steering wheel has perished. Horribly. I believe I have a new felt here somewhere but I wonder if anyone knows a needle bearing number that will fit in there. I've seen the Tompkins kits advertised as including just such a bearing so I know there's one that'll do.

    Torrington needle bearing number is B-1416 , its really not a good fit as the steering tube is 1.150" bore, the bearing is 1.125" OD., and the shaft od is 0.870" and the bearing 0.875" bore. So you see, the needle bearing will allow a lot of slop in the steering. Better to re-fit a well lubricated felt bush as original. Also, the column tube is just that, a tube , and does not have a smooth ID, due to the tube joint weld. I have several TCs and have worked on them for over 30 years, I have make oil filter adapters for spin-on filter to be used. Also, Alfin type aluminum brake drums. Also front axle replacement spindles.

    The needle roller bearing that goes at the top of the TC steering column is available from Moss Motors (or one of their Distributors) under their part number 129-214 at $7.35 retail list.

     

    TD steering column bushing

    1) Am disassembling the steering column. The Moss diagram shows two felt bushings, one at the upper end, the other at the lower end . . . contained in the raised area at the end of the column tube. I removed the remains of the upper bushing - it was definitely felt, but the lower bushing seems to be leather, not felt. But I can't be sure its the original bushing - maybe someone replaced it with a leather piece. Anyone have the same finding? It seems to me that leather would provide a more durable bushing, if only there was some way of lubricating it occasionally. 2) To deal with the worn area on the rack, where the pinion sits when the wheels point straight ahead, I've been wondering if anyone has tried the fix in which you turn the steering wheel a half turn (clockwise or counterclockwise??), then adjust the tie rods (shorten one, lengthen the other) to bring the wheels straight again. That puts the pinion's "resting place" a bit further along the rack, in a less-worn area. I've heard about this but haven't met anyone who's tried it. Have any listers tried it? Does it work?

    This can be done, but it reduces the steering lock on one side and increases it on another. Therefore the car at full lock makes a smaller circle in one direction and a larger circle the other. The larger circle will cause no problems but the smaller one, if to small, may overcenter and make it very difficult to straighten the wheel.

    Another remedy which helps some, is to disassemble the rack and rotate the pinion gear 180 degrees. This will place an unworn section of the pinion in the straight ahead position. However, on the two TD racks I have dissasembled the rack seems to wear a lot more than the pinion.

     

    TD steering rack clunk

    Thank goodness for the online help. Nothing makes me more frustrated than to find nothing in my hundreds of manuals, books and newsletters referring to a specific MG problem. The subject of this search has to do with a clunk that recently started on my TD's steering rack. I mentioned this problem earlier, but finding nothing written, have to come back to this group for any info you can impart. Here's the problem: -Pushing down on the front suspension causes the inner rack to hit the steering housing where the rack passes through at the inner ball joint at both ends. There is nothing that I have found that mentions this as a potential wear point when rebuilding your steering! There are no replacable bushes like the later B's have(Someone must have had a problem). The triangular rack rides through the circular housing contacting it along three areas. Grab the inner ball joint and push it up and down and you can feel a slight looseness up and down. Is this repairable? What would cause this to happen? Going over rough roads sounds as if the front end is about to smack itself until something breaks. Very disconcerting.

    Thanks to all who offered some ideas on my clunk from the TD rack housing. Took a spare rack and pinion (don't we all have these on the shelf?) over to Rob Medynski in NJ and he drilled and tapped the right side damper boss(for either left or right hand drive, remember). I will pick up and hopefully this will tighten up the rack and eliminate the clunk. Greg Prehodka did this fix on his racer TD, too and fixed the problem, so I'm optimistic. If you notice a sharp clunk at slow speed over any surface, this is the only fix for it.

    That's great to know. But what the @#%# is a "damper boss?" Is that when your supervisor is wetter than my supervisor? But seriously, I recently had my steering rack apart and don't recall anything that looked like a damper boss and I don't recall any reference to such an animal in the manual.

    I do have a little freeplay on one side of my rack where the round dohickey screws onto the rack itself (how much you want to bet that _dohickey_ is in the manual). Horst Schach's book tells me to unscrew it and then use some emery paper on a flat surface to get it to fit closer. Unfortunately, I couldn't even get the blessed thing off to do the emery paper deal. Is the damper boss related to that?

    Yes it is. The damper boss I refer to is the undrilled and untapped right side of the steering rack(assuming you have a left hand drive TD.) You say you have a bit of play on the damper side now. If you look under that domed nut you're having such a time removing, you'll find the following: several thin shims, a 3/4" spring and a hollow brass damper pad. The spring fits into the damper pad and when tightened correctly, forces the brass end against the rack to take up the play. There should be a clearance that adds up to .051" under the domed nut. This is the standard pre-load shim total. If you check on the road and this is too tight or too loose, it is permissable to decrease to .030" or increase to .070". Check the manual for the correct procedure when measuring. I wouldn't bother using emery paper, that's a lot of work, just remove a couple of shims to fit closer. It's a good idea to unscrew that damper assembly as I have seen cases where the bottom of the brass pad was worn away and the spring is wearing against the rack!

     

    TD Steering problem solved

    Folks, just a bit more info on what caused that clunking on the front end of my 53 TD. When I took the rack and pinion out of the car both inner ball joints were so stiff and not moving as to transfer all the wheel jounce right to the rack and housing! This with a rack that I lubricated with 90 weight very often. Putting back a rack housing that has 2 dampers, one on each end and tie rods with the proper free play.

    Thanks for the update. Were the inner ball joints dry of lubrication? That you have used the 90 and they were stuck makes me curious. For years I have been using moly chassis grease in the rack, because Chip Old (I think) had said in the T-Series Handbook that it seemed to be OK. Now I wonder if the grease might be less likely to get into the ball joints than the oil would. What do you think?

    Actually, the inner ball joints were not dry. They had been lubricated with the 90 weight. In fact, at one time I must have put some grease in there as well, since I found it when things came apart. However, it didn't travel far from the center of the rack. I plan on filling up the entire rack with 90 weight with one rubber gaiter loose so I can see the oil coming out. That should then be filled enough for lubricating everything. Just finished putting things back about an hour ago and will wait for the rain to stop before venturing out. Still have to check on the toe-in, toe-out as I replaced everything and lost my marks on the old stuff. The good news is , no more clunk when I push down on the headlamp brackets!!

    Chip has already contributed to my query with the TD steering problem and Chip, correct me if I'm wrong, but someone mentioned that you felt using a good modern day grease would work. From my experience cleaning out the rack, all the grease was centered in the middle and didn't seem to be flowing out to the most important inner ball joints. The 90 weight, with the rack properly filled, will keep the entire length of the rack well lubricated. All the more important to be sure your rubber gaiters are not torn and allowing dust and water in to corrupt ball ends.

     

    TD Steering Wheel Romoval

    Anyone have a tip on removing the steering wheel from a 1953 TD? I removed the nut, the bolt that locks the adjustment and can adjust the wheel in and out but cannot get it to come off the splines. The shop manual mentions removing a key (?) but the only key I can see locates the wheel on the shaft and does not appear to be removable (I did try to no avail!). Is it a rust problem? I have been soaking the splines in Liquid Wrench and WD 40 for days now but still no luck. Would appreciate any tips from those more experienced with TDs!

    Yup, rust it is! That wheel is stuck on a tapered surface at the end of the shaft. (The key you refer to just stops the hub rotating on that taper.)

    A puller of some sort or a BFH are your best resorts. Be sure the clamp you loosened (which allows the wheel and shaft to adjust in and out of the column) is tight before you do the hammer routine, though.

    Yes, there is a key, and I'm not referring to the one that locates the wheel on the shaft. It is kind of oblong with rounded ends. It sits flush with the outer casing, so is very hard to detect. It is under the chrome coil thingie. As I recall, you have to push the end of the chrome coil (I don't remember whether outer or inner...) up (or down) as far as possible, so as to compress the coil, and the key is visible. Since it is flush with the surface, you have to pick it out with a very tiny screwdriver or some such. You can't remove the key unless the wheel is NOT against a stop, i.e., it is neither as far out or as far in as it will go. I know, clear as mud, but trust me, it's there, and you won't get the thing off until the key is removed.

    Yes, there is a key, and I'm not referring to the one that locates the wheel on the shaft. It is kind of oblong with rounded ends. It sits flush with the outer casing, so is very hard to detect. It is under the chrome coil thingie. As I recall, you have to push the end of the chrome coil (I don't remember whether outer or inner...) up (or down) as far as possible, so as to compress the coil, and the key is visible. Since it is flush with the surface, you have to pick it out with a very tiny screwdriver or some such. You can't remove the key unless the wheel is NOT against a stop, i.e., it is neither as far out or as far in as it will go. I know, clear as mud, but trust me, it's there, and you won't get the thing off until the key is removed. Well, there's more to the story. The TD wheel is attached to a shaft which slides up and down on a splined steering column. The key to which I refer above keeps the shaft on the splined column, and has nothing to do with the wheel on the shaft. The removal of this key lets you take the shaft off the (main) column and get the assembly out of the car. Removal of the wheel from the shaft is then easily accomplished with a suitable drift (BF puller). While this can be done on the car, I found it easier if the wheel/shaft assembly is removed first.

    Extend the steering wheel adjusment, and slide the chrome "coil" out of the way. Youthen have to use the point of aknife or similar to pop out the rounded "key". Withe this out, you can slide the splined shaft and wheel off of the steering column. If you want to remove the wheel from the splined shaft, then you will have to use a three jawed wheel, or gear puller.

    There is a key, but it's not the problem here. The key will come off when the wheel does. Beg, borrow or steal a wheel puller from someone, and put it to work. Tighten, tap with hammer on the loosened nut, tighten, tap, etc. Tugging on the wheel is not likely to work, but if it does it will probably remove your front teeth when it comes off the splines.

     

    TD steering wheel removal (2)

    I am trying to remove the steering wheel. Loosened the column bolt and pulled out the wheel to its stopping point. Removed the center piece and loosened the bolt holding the wheel to the column. Thought that the wheel would just come off at this point but, alas, stays where it is. I think they is a key at the top of the post, but how do you remove it. All assistance greatly appreciated!

    TD steering wheel: There are two keys. One holds the steering wheel onto the adjustable splined shaft. The other is in the splined shaft, limiting the in and out travel of the splined shaft. To remove the key and extract the steering wheel and splined shaft, remove clamp at steering column. Use a pick to remove key from splined shaft. Shaft and steering wheel should come out. To remove wheel from splined shaft, undo nut on shaft, found after removing steering wheel center. You might need a gear puller to extract the steering wheel from the splined shaft.

    You've loosened the clamp, so now you need to slide the clamp up the column, compressing the chrome-plated spring cover to expose the oblong-shaped key. Remove the key with a suitable pick, and the wheel, along with the upper 6-8" portion of the column, will slide out. DO NOT LOOSE THIS KEY, AS IT IS WHAT KEEPS THE COLUMN SECTIONS TOGETHER. Unless you are changing the wheel, you do not need to separate the upper column from the wheel. However, once you have this assembly out of the car, separation is a piece of cake. All you need is a big hammer.

    On my TD, the key stays in the slot in the steering column and the wheel will, with some wiggling, slide off the column and the key.

     

    Wheels / tires

     

    Steering wheel shimmy

    I have friend with a nice '52 TD but he has a problem with steering wheel shimmy above 60 MPH,He said he checked wheel balance,everything looks tight in the front end I haven't had a chance to go look at yet. Any ideas on what to look for?

    Weak dampers or their being low on fluid, bent wheel, tire balanced but out of round, under or over-inflated tires. He's getting the engine revs up there at a true 60 mph. Do you know if he runs at that speed for long distances?

    Check the three rubber bushings where the steering column join. It should be down around dizzy. There are three on each side and they do wear out and it can be somewhat dangerous. I doubt this would only happen at 60 but it is a thought, mine were worn completely out and once I replaced them it was steady driving.

    Here's one of those 'it happened to me' --- Is there any chance that he's running tubed tires with inner tubes that are a bit too large? Installing tubes of the right size for the 165/15's on my TD made a 70mph driver out of mine.

    well we finally found out why my friends TD is shaking all over the place he has 3 wheels that are bent or out of round!!! These are the slotted original wheels 15" 5 bolt pattern.Does anyone know if they can be repaired if not does anyone out there have any for sale?He really wants to drive it but is starting to get discouraged.Who would have thought the wheels would be tweaked.Any help will make him happy.

    This isn't unusual. Most BritCar wheels are made of thinner gauge steel than we are used to in the US, so are easier to damage. Take them to a wheel repair shop for assessment.

     

    Wheel Wobble TC - 19" wheels

    Calling all wheel/hub experts. Help desired with sorting out the source of a wheel wobble.

    I had the wheels trued a few weeks ago before the GOF West. Had new Firestones put on and off we went. At each stop one of the other drivers in our caravan would sidle up to me and say, "I' thjought you'd like to knowyou have a wobble a wobble in your right rear wheel." After about 5 or 6 such comments, I was prepared with the old "Yeah, I know, I'll have to have to getbthat checked out when I get home." So, I went home and checked things out..wheel is pretty true when off the car. Put back on tightened down a little more and forgot about it until this past weekend run to Bolinas, CA (Beeeutiful Day, Great roads, Fabulous scenery!) So I get there and the nice fellow who was behind me in the TC caravan on those great twisting coastal roads sidles up to me and says, "I thought you'd like to know that I noticed a wobble in your right rear wheel." Yeah, " I said shrugging it off outwardly while my heart sank anew, "I'll have to get it checked out when I get home." Ugh!

    While on the way home no less than 4 drivers of Ford Explorers, Chevy Cavaliers, and a '53 stakeside flatbed with furniture and two mattresses I would not sleep on, tooted at me and then leaned out to shout.."Hey, buddy, I thought youd like to know your right rear wheel has a wobble in it!" Is there no place I can hide?! By the last greeting, I was able to lip-synch their words right along with them. Which, I am sure they thought was a very ungrateful and irreverant response on my part.

    So I get home and take the offending wheel off and up to the wire wheel guy. I watch as he puts it on his machine and gives it a spin. It has a little run-out..maybe 1/16". Not bad. He says leave it and he'll remove as much of that as he can. I do, he does, and I pick it up on the way home from work.

    Tonight I put it on and give it a spin...The wobble is still there...maybe 3/8 - 1/2" runout.! The hub turns true. The wheel turns true on the shop machine, but when put on the car, the wobble is still there. All I can detect is that the space between the brake drum and the outer edge of the inner wheel lacing flange could have as much as 1/32 - 1/16" variation from closest to furthest from the brake drum. Could that translate to 3/8 to 1/2" at the wheel rim or tire? Why would that nor show up at his shop? Is there something wrong with the bevel on my hub? Is the wheel bumping up against the studs that hold the brake drum? Doesn't look that way. All suggestions gratefully accepted.

    Sure sounds like a bent axle to me. It's super-easy to pull the shaft, put it on a flat surface, and roll it. Why not give it a try.

    I won't say "It can't be.", but remember It was stated that the hub runs true. This is not likely with a bend half-shaft or axle.

    However, if the wheel is not square to the hub:

    ((>All I can detect is that the space between the brake drum and the outer edge of the inner wheel lacing flange could have as much as 1/32 - 1/16" variation from closest to furthest from the brake drum. ))

    then the described wobble could occur. Yes, a small angular error at the hub could, with the 19" diameter wheel, translate to a very significant run out at the tire.

     

    Front wheel shimmy - MG TD

    One of our club members needs help. Over the winter, he rebuilt the swivel pins and front suspension of his TD. He also bought new radial tires. Come spring, he found a severe shimmy at 50 mph--steering wheel shakes, scuttle and windshield shake. He had the wheels re-balanced again, by two different shops. He sent the wheels out to be checked by a wheel shop. $130 later, the shop said wheels were within spec. He says that they have 3/16 inch runout, but that the shop says that's acceptible. (Runout on my TD wheels is <3/32) He bought new radial tires. Front end has been aligned twice. TD front ends are similar to MGB, in that there is no adjustment for caster or camber, only toe-in. Toe in is now 1/16. Wheels still shimmy violently. What should he be looking for?

    Check the shock absorbers, suspension rubbers, tie rod ends, and especially, the brake drums.

    If possible find a shop who have the ability to spin balance the wheel in situ together with the brake drum while all is mounted on the car.

    I would have your friend find another wheel shop, 3/16 inch runout is definitely excessive. He should also have the rear wheels checked for runnout and out of round condition - it was the rear wheels on my car that caused the condition that your friend is experiencing (and they had less than 3/16 inch of runout before I had them repaired).

    I had a similar situation when I first put my TD on the road. In my case it was cured by replacing the inner tubes.

    In the late Sixties when the Michelin X radial first began becoming popular I picked up the idea that the toe-in required for bias-ply tires should be eliminated when mounting radials. I have run zero degrees toe-in on my older Volvo 122S, 145S wagon and 54 MG TF successfully ever since. The 3/16" or so wheel run out combined with the 1/16 toe-in might be generating the wheel shimmy your friend is experiencing. His wobbly rims tracking straight ahead might run more smoothly.

     

    Tires for TD?

    The 165x15 is the one. I've had them on my 53 TD for the past 32 years and I remember the difference in handling was amazing. Gas mileage went up too. I currently have a set of Michelin XZX's on and they work great in the wet and dry. Some people have mentioned balance problems

    with radials on T- series, but that's a factor of how good the balancing is done.

    I use 28lbs front and 26 lbs rear in my Michelin 165 R 15 radials.

    I like my Dunlop SP4n tires, but the they are now out of production, the last ones available being sold out about two months ago. The new ones are now Dunlop SP20, supposed to be a bit better than the SP4n. They handle well, are the correct size, and look great on a TD. Order Dunlop SP20, 165SR15. Tire Rack sells them now for $37 and change, just checked this morning.

    I run Michelin XZX 165X15s on my TD I like 32 PSI.

     

    Right size tires for TD and TF

    I have a couple of questions concerning the right size (or best size) tires for both my TD and TF. I have had regular nylon bias tires on my TD for about eight years now. (Bought them at a really good price just when I needed them.) No real tread wear is evident but am conscious of the timeframe involved and dry rotting. I also want to buy a new set of tires for my recently purchased TF 1500. It is now carrying regular nylon bias ply tires, but want to get radials with the thin white wall for both cars.

    Can someone out there tell me what to buy. What looks good. I think that I can get the small white walls from Coker tire, since I questioned them at last years' Carlisle show concerning availability. I questioned them, however, about straight replacements for the TD, not about anything a bit larger.

    Origional tire size was 5.50 x 15. Current metric radial size would be 5.60 R 15. This is a popular size, as Volkswagen used it as well.

    I have been running radial tires on my TF since restoration, and I would never, ever go back to bias-ply tires. Radials give the car wonderful driveability. The size escapes me right now, but I believe I'm running 165-15 radials. I can check this evening and send you the size tomorrow.

    I believe you mean 165R15, which is what most people use. One (only) drawback to using the radial vs. the bias ply, is that the bias ply tended to be a taller (greater circumference) tire. Why does this matter? Well, if you still have the 5.125 original gear ratio in the rear, the slightly smaller diameter radial will only exacerbate the problem of high revs at highway speed. By how much? I don't remember exactly. I calculated it all out one time, and I think it came to a hundred or two hundred rpm or so. Also, different manufacturers have slightly different circumferences/diameters on their radials.

    I have heard that Dunlop SP20's are a good choice, although you can find off-brand radials at that size pretty cheaply, if price is your greatest consideration.

    I've got a friend that put 185/65/15's on his TD, but even he doesn't know why.

    I agree with the 165SR15 recommendation. I have them on the TD, but must admit that as of this past winter have converted to the 4.55 rear end.

    I also agree with the Dunlop SP20 recommendation. I have these or SP4s on everything including the J2, the TD, the MGA, and even my Jeep.

    Most TD & TF drivers seem to use 5.50x15 or 5.60x15 bias ply, and 165x15 radials. The problem one faces is that even the bias plys have a smaller rolling circumference than the original Dunlop Gold Seal 5.50x15, hence the revs/mile increase with the new tires. The problem is worse with the 165x15, as they have a smaller circumference than the bias plys that fit the wheel The width of the rims limits the width (thus also the height) of the tire. Choices, choices. I bought Firestone 5.60x15 to replace some very worn Michelins X. They do look more appropriate for the car, but I would hazard a guess that the Michelin tubes alone would have better grip on the pavement than the Firestones. Memory is that the original Gold Seals on the car were the true inspiration for Nader's "Unsafe At Any Speed", though that chapter was left out of the book. The Firestones aren't much, if any better. My advice is that you ask Coker and the other tire dealers for the largest tire they carry that will fit these narrow rims. One of our club members related at the last meeting that there are tires that fit our cars, but that they have modern, swirly, tread patterns that don't look right on T-series cars.

    I vintage race my TD on 165Rx15 Michelins. They work great, although they are a little (a lot?) noisy when cornering hard. Another advantage is they are better in the wet than the competition Dunlops. The only time I can get close to the really hot cars is in the rain.

    Just what do you mean by the right size? Are you talking about 5.50 x 15 tires? How would you feel about 5.60 x 15? We have known for years that this was a most common size tire, and that we should have no problem finding this size, as Volkswagons used the same (or near to the same) size tire. When they went from bias ply to radial, hence the change from 5.60 x 15 to 165 R 15, availability shouldn't have dried up. And, if oriigionality is what you seek, look to a Volkswagon parts place. One of our members was looking for bias ply wide white walls for his TD. He finally found Denman bias ply tires with wide white walls at a Volkswagon Bug Haus. Blackwalls might also be found there, as well as a selection of radial tires, or at least suppliers.

    Further, he found that of this reduced choice, tread patterns were modern, swirly designs that he didn't want for his TD. Eventually he found Vredensteins (sp?) that he though looked right and bought a set. I've not heard a use report from him yet, not that our TDs are demanding of their tires. Whatever the difficulty of finding 165x15, I hope that noone repeats my mistake of buying 5.60x15 Firestone bias plys. They're wearing out fast, but not fast enough.

     

    Tire Pressure for TD

    What tire pressure do you recommend for radials on a TD?

    I used 24 lb./sq.in. front and rear for years. Others may recommend a different bias to control over or under steer.

    I felt the original recommendation of 18 lb./sq.in. was too low to use tubeless. Also the original lower 18 lb. gave a less harsh ride, but radials dramatically reduce that and with it the necessity of a lower tire pressure.

    I've used 20 psi since I switched to radials but I still use tubes.

    It depends on the tire Mfg. max pressure which is inscribed on the tire itself. I like to use 32psi in mine.

     

    Tubeless tires on TD wheels?

    Anybody have any experience running tubeless tires on their disk wheeled TD's? I haven't tried it because I felt that the rim wouldn't seal them adequately. Sharp turns would put an extreme force against the rim and cause tires to separate. Besides, were tubeless tires available at that time? All experiences will help me decide to go that route since eliminating tubes might help with the balance problem I've been having. If there is less mass turning, fewer problems with scuttle shake or am I wrong here?

    I can speak to that issue. When I got my 52 it had a virtually new set of Semperit 165-15 tubeless radials on it. During the first four years I had the tub off of the rolling frame. I had to periodically add air to two of the tires so that I could move it around. After getting it driveable I found that filling the tires was a hassle, so I took the tires off and had a look. The air was not leaking from around the bead, it sealed okay. The leaks were from the inside, hub, section of the wheels. It was basically from corrosion. One wheel was bad enough for me to hunt up a replacement. I installed a set of tubes. Seemed all right until I installed the 4.3 rear end. Too much shimmy above 60 mph. The tubes were too sloppy a fit into the tires. I bought a set of 155/165-15 tubes from Moss and them installed and carefully balanced. Made all the difference in the world. I now chicken out at 70.

    BTW, the NEMGTR Safety Fast inspection requires that cars have tubes or the car will not pass the inspection.

    I have NOS Dunlop Gold Cup bias ply tubeless tires (5.60x16) which I originally installed without tubes. Held air just fine for many years just sitting in the basement but one of the members of the local MG Car Club said tubes should be installed. The reason cited was that the type of rims we have will allow the bead of the tire to slip off the edge of the rim under a sudden or hard turn. I don't expect to encounter this hard turn condition but safety is obviously a factor. It was explained that American cars of the day have a "safety rim" which has some kind of a bead retaining feature built into the rim that resists the bead of the tire slipping off to cause a sudden deflation of one or more tires. So, I stuck tubes in the tires just to be sure. Now that I have the 4.3 rear end, I also have the scuttle-shake problem at higher cruise speeds. Balancing helped but didn't totally resolve the vibration problem. Now, I'm told that I should have tubeless tires with tubes to solve my shakes. From what Bud says, it sounds like I won't be much better off and probably make some scavenger very happy with a near new set of bias tires and tubes. I also read that bias tubes are different than radial tubes so I get the short end there too! It's beginning to look like I should leave well enough alone tire-wise and just be happy that the engine isn't flogging itself to death when I hit 60 or 65 MPH. I'll be looking for more opinions on the subject. .

    II've never used tubes in a TD with solid wheels but have with other cars that have had a hole in the side wall. Always worked with no problem.

    I disagree. Dave should know better. Using tubeless on non tubeless rims is dangerous. To do so will get you an automatic 15 points and a failure when going through Safety Fast check. Get tubes.

    My TD has 4.1 gears, Firestone 5.60x15 with tubes, and it goes just fine, as fast as I dare drive it, without vibration. It's not tubes that cause vibrations necessarily. The Owners book points out that the tubes should be installed with their heavy part adjacent to the tyres' light part, and tubes and tires were both marked. I don't know--we just put the tubes in the tire so that the valve went through the hole in the wheel--no effort expended to find light/heavy areas. As to the bead slipping off the rim, it seems to me that the beads stayed on the rims when the cars were new and that it's the air pressure that holds the tire in place, not the tube that holds it in place. Yes, there were "safety" rims advertised once, but I don't know what is is that makes them "safe" I'll stick with my theory that the tubes aren't necessary with skinny bias ply tires unless the tire people tell you to use them; that radials may require them because of their incredibly better adhesion. Michelin, for one, is insistant that "radial-type" tubes be used. They say that conventional tubes will split, giving you the very blowout that you didn't want to experience.

    I believe that running tubeless tires on a TD is an automatic fail on the NEMGTR Safety Fast check. The rim definitely does not provide enough of a lip to hold a tubeless tire. You can probably go for a long time though without a problem but just let the pressure fall a bit, hit a curve a little fast and off comes the tire.

    Another NEMGTR member was telling me Saturday night that there is a place in CA. (not British Wire Wheel) that will "modify" a wheel to allow use of tubeless tires. He is planning on doing that for his TF.

    What is it that is different about the bead of tubeless and tube-type tires? Did Detroit provide a different wheel when tubeless tires became standard? Is the rim of an MGB wire wheel different from that for the disk wheel where the tire bead contacts? Carol, in Texas, runs tubeless tires on her wires, albeit with some silicone on the nipples, and she cheerfully admits it. If you can find out the name of this outfit in CA, I would be interested to learn what it is that they do.

    MGT's, here in West Milford NJ. was telling me that an auto speed store in Florida NY can add a bead around the TD wheels to accept the tubeless tires, too. I haven't as yet checked it out but will and report back. This is an interesting subject. I don't proclaim to know any of the answers, but this summer one of our club members debuted his beautifully restored 56 TR3 smallmouth. He took it to one of our slaloms and on the first tight left hand turn proceeded to peel his newly installed radial (tubeless) from the right rear wheel accompanied by a lot of sparks as the undercarriage slid across the parking lot.

    I think I would keep the tubes on those old rims.

    The incident Len cited is exactly what was identified to me long ago as being the problem with not installing tubes on our TD wheels. As the force of the abrupt turn pushes the tire bead toward the centerline of the wheel, the air is dumped the same as in the case of a blowout and away you go! The tube, as I understand it, doesn't actually keep the tire on the rim but it helps restore the bead to its normal position on the wheel as the wheel revolves. This restorative action is enough to retain the tire where it belongs. Now I I've spouted off everything I think I know about the subject. From the standpoint of safety, the reason for the tubes is not that you plan to make hard turns, it's for the unexpected occasion when you have to do the maneuver to stay out of other troubles. As for the safety rim, as best I remember, the "safety rim wheel" was first touted by Chrysler products back in the 40s maybe the later 30s. I have no idea what the physical characteristics of the improved wheel was but I imagine it was some sort of a retention bump on the bead seating area. Maybe somebody out there knows or remembers more details but I think the safety wheel preceded the tubeless tire by many, many years. My turn to get off the soapbox.

    Thanks for the explanation. I still don't see how the tube can supply more pressure to the bead area than the air did, but that it might hold the air (pressure) in place for a moment longer may be the answer. I'm waiting to see if someone can answer the question about the shape of the rim used on the tubed MGB spoke wheels and the tubeless MGB disk wheels. Perhaps that wil tell us more. Len, do you know the width of the TR3 wheel? The size of the radial tire? I still wonder if the roll-off-the-rim problem is not in some way related to modern tires being used on T cars, tires that should be mounted on wider rims. I have been following the discussions of MGB obsolete size 165x14 as the suggestions about different sizes pass by.

     

    Wire wheels on a MG-TD?

    I've read that wire wheels were offered as an option on later TD's. Does anyone know which years this happened? Then again would they always look out-of-place anyway, making it a moot point?

    They were never an option on TD's. Sorry. However, after the wire-wheeled TF's came out it became possible to retrofit the wheels onto a TD. IMHO, they don't look right but, that's just my opinion.

    Sorry, whoever wrote what you read was wrong! The factory did not offer wire wheels as an option until the TF came along (introduced at the 1953 Earl's Court, London, Motor Show.)

    Dealers were able to retrofit TDs with wires as the parts interchanged easily and, of course, many hundreds of TDs have since been fitted with wires by using either TF parts, conversion kits from people such as Moss Motors, or by the expedient of fitting MGA or MGA components.

    And I'm not sure everyone will agree that TDs don't look good with wire wheels! I have a grey car with chrome wire wheels in my shop at present and it looks very elegant!

    The cars did not leave the factory with wire wheels, but when the TF was introduced it did have them available. Since the running gear of both models is essentially the same, the TF parts can be used to make a WW TD.

     

    MG TD Wheel Studs

    My 1950 MG TD is getting closer to being back on the road all the time, the major body and mechanical restoration is substantially complete but now I am looking at the "smaller" details. Some of the wheel studs are not in the best of shape with mangled threads from someone trying to jamb nuts on from the looks of it.

    My question is, has anyone replaced the studs in their cars. I don't want to wail on them to drive them out of the drum just in case they are not a splined fit. I haven't seen any reference to them anywhere. Also, if they are replaceable, is there a standard stud that can be used or am I stuck with the early whitworth thread.

    The studs on TD's up to chassis no. 12284 were BSF threads. TD's from chassis no. 12285, and TF disc wheel cars are SAE thread. I would purchase one from Moss Motors, 264-240 (BSF thread) for your 1950 TD, to compare threads from new stud against what you have installed. It is quite possible that you could have late SAE threads (264-110), as drums would be purchased from wrecking yards, as old drums were turned to maximum. Once you have compared the threads, to see if you do have BSF threads, or SAE threads, you can decide on the route to take. The studs are splined. Driven out with a hammer, or pressed out. Pressed or hammered back into the drum. You should be able to find replacement studs in aa good auto parts store, armed with the correct stud sample that you purchased.

    A good way to check to see if the studs are SAE or BSF, is to try a SAE nut on the other studs. If you can't get the SAE nut to fit by hand, no wrench needed, on the remaining studs, then the drum's studs are BSF.

     

    Front end